Dear David,
I hope you are well.
First, I want to apologize for the length of this question / screed.
I re-upped my Guns mag subscription for the sole purpose of supporting your column.
I am 48, 4 kids 9- 22, married 24 years, self employed 30 years having built 4 notorious businesses still in operation today. A couple of post grad degrees and recently graduated from law school. I’ve interned for a senior partner at (one of) the top criminal / (constitutional) law firms in the country for the last year and a half.
I plan to take the kalifornia Bar exam and specialize in firearms and 4th amendment law defending "law abiding citizens" charged with gun possession and other "crimes".
I grew up in a hoplophope family. I was a gun fanatic since Roy Rogers, Bat Masterson, John Wayne, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. I bought my first "legal" gun at Buchanans gun shop on College Avenue in Berkeley at 10:05 on my 18th birthday. I was standing at the door waiting for him to open. Gun Shop in Berkeley? (he’s been closed and gone for 25 years).
My kids all shoot and hunt. (Look for my 9 year old to be an Olympic contender)
This is a long way of saying that I am a forever believer in the second amendment and I want to believe in it. I want my children to grow up free. I frame EVERY argument in my life in terms of the freedom of my children and their future families. But now I have gone to Law school and I have worked in a top law firm (as an intern) and everywhere I turn the people with the experience in the trenches that I respect tell me that the second amendment is NEVER the argument.
I continually talk to experienced, smart, creative attorneys that I respect who tell me there is no second amendment. Yesterday I had a long talk with the partner I work for and he told me to "forget the second amendment, it was poorly written, it’s been completely de-balled. U.S. gun laws are entirely statute driven and it has been increasingly thus since "U.S. v Miller" in 1938. He said with the exception of "U.S. v Lopez" there are no meaningful constitutional arguments for inalienable gun rights. The courts have routinely upheld restrictions on possession and ownership particularly local ordinances.
I should throw in that these are seriously constitution believing, gun owning, gun in the top desk drawer attorneys with years of experience, not the bRADY BUNCH.
This is a very long way of asking YOU, in your opinion, is there any point any more in the second amendment or is it just a fund raising dog and pony show? Has the second amendment been rendered entirely symbolic? What basis do YOU see for ever demanding rights under the second amendment? (And yes I am watching "Parker")
I am asking sincerely as a newly minted (though not born yesterday) attorney that wants to make the second amendment (and the constitution) the law of the land for my children (and yours). Everywhere I look I don’t see it as a practical reality. As much as I want to believe in the second, it seems like a mass delusion (or worse) a cynical use of the concept for pure fund raising hype with no expectation (by the professional promoters) that there is any argument to win.
I acknowledge that I am a paranoid nut case and I do not trust the state (particularly the current GENERATION of self serving one world "alleged representatives" selling out our children in every way at every opportunity)
I cling to these beliefs being aware that forty states have passed Shall Carry laws and being fully informed about the "castle doctrine" laws. But isn’t it possible that "Shall Carry", i.e. "Shall Register" may just be a ruse to determine where all the guns are and that with the stroke of a pen they could use those lists as the basis for confiscation? Again, I know I am an unreasonable "nut case" but if anything is possible and history repeats itself....repeatedly.......?
Instead of keeping high paid lobbyists going (al la Wayne La Pierre) would it be more prudent to tell our children that confiscation is inevitable, do not cooperate? Wouldn’t it be more effective to rally those that would fund these (arguably) gun control organizations (like the NRA) that are raking in millions compromising away our gun rights routinely and incrementally - particularly by pretending we have to ask permission instead of saying "storm the capitals" and "Shall not be infringed" has it’s plain meaning?
Wouldn’t it be more meaningful for us to promote the compact made with US by the Founders when they pledged "Our lives our fortunes and our sacred honor" that your children and mine would live free? With regular pitchfork parties at the "government houses". Are U.S. Citizens sooooo gutless that they will not stand up to a government that works for them? Are we a nation of girls? (Rhetorical questions, I know). Maybe we should be shaming the masses instead of hyping them on the second. What is your view? (Is it time to contemplate the need or the inevitability of having to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots")?
Isn’t it long past time for civil disobedience and non cooperation? Isn’t it time to teach your (our / all) children that confiscation is inevitable. It’s a deliberate plot against the populace. That citizens should never cooperate, register or report? Shouldn’t second amendment focused organizations and publications start promoting non registration, parents buying for their children so the children are never "on record", acknowledging that the government has already so far overstepped their authority that they can not be trusted and to act defensively for the future safety of our children and our country? i.e. REALITY.
If the minders won’t mind the borders at the minimum when in excess of 70% of the population is demanding to close the borders - why should any thinking person believe the government, bent on one worldism will ever protect the constitution or the citizens god given inalienable rights to anything?????
Shouldn’t we be screaming that totalitarianism is coming at light speed? Instead of this constant fund raising subterfuge that the second amendment will someday form the basis of a winning lawsuit that will set the U.S. back on a constitutional course and abolish all gun laws, blah, blah, blah, blah, promote the myth? Isn’t this just delusion and masturbation and mental disorder????
If we keep up all this sound and fury promoting an argument that can never move the reality forward and we are just flailing about chanting a mantra that is effectively a political divide and conquer and slight of hand strategy to dilute and pacify / pussify the electorate.........Aren’t we mentally ill? Or DUMB????
Are we passing the point of no return where in the second amendment (and many of the others, 1st, 4th, 5th, etc..), no, the Constitution will be stolen from our children without a shot being fired by the absolute worthless, embarrassing, self serving, pandering, lowest common denominator dunderheaded "alleged representatives" from top to bottom, petite totalitarians and soccer moms and the lowest common denominator educational / indoctrination system "we" have built?
Have we be been completely screwed by the "greatest generation" who having won WWII, sat on their fat assess and voted entitlement and totalitarianism into this country and hope to party till the lights go out and save the bill for their grandchildren and die before they have to see the damage they have delivered their future generations?
I know you are a fan of "the prisoner". We ARE living in the village. More so all the time and on an accelerating path. But you and I, and a few pockets here and there are "not prisoners, we are free men! Or by our actions, are we?
What do you think?
I am asking your personal opinion for my own interest and direction and I will NOT republish your response.
No hurry. I appreciate and value your considered opinion.
Again, I apologize for the length of this "question".
Thank you for your time David.
Dave Licht
It will take time to do justice to Mr. Licht's thoughtful observations and questions, and I doubt I'll be able to do it all in one sitting (and get anything else done). I hope to be able to respond to some, possibly all of his points, over the course of this week.
In the mean time, if you think you have value to add to the discussion, well, that's why we have a "Comments" section...
Well, in practical terms it's no bad thing to have a couple of private transfers around, but I don't think we can simply abandon the Constitutional argument, and I don't think it's mere cynical fundraising.
ReplyDeleteAbandoning the Constitutional argument puts us on the footing of arguing our mere preference against the preferences of others. I can think of only two ways to adjudicate among competitng preferences, absent some absolute and external standard: majority rule, or naked force.
Even if one accepts the premise that the Second Amendment is presently a nullity, there's no law (if you'll pardon the pun) that says it must remain a nullity. What is done can be undone. I grant you, it is a long, hard road, but I think it is better than simply going to ground to await the inevitable. It is inevitable only if we allow it to become so.
The solution is: guts.
ReplyDeleteWhen they come for your guns, just say "NO."
We need some people getting arrested, tried and set free to put some teeth into the 2nd amendment.
On the other hand, if these folks who say "NO" are arrested, tried, and sent away to prison, simply for possessing firearms, then the time has come to give them your bullets first, before they can have your guns.
This ought to help:
ReplyDeletehttp://gunshowonthenet.com/2ALaw/AmericaAlwaysArmed.html
http://gunshowonthenet.com/2ALaw/LawsofNature.html
http://gunshowonthenet.com/2ALEGAL/CitizensRight.html
http://gunshowonthenet.com/2ALEGAL/Origins.html
http://gunshowonthenet.com/2ALEGAL/Origins&Precedent.html
http://gunshowonthenet.com/AfterTheFact/Contents.html
http://gunshowonthenet.com/SecondAmend/TheRight.html
There is more if you need it....
Sorry, the links didn't post right:
ReplyDeleteThe Right
"Rights of the citizen declared to be --"
“Agreed to found our Rights upon the Laws of Nature....”
Right to Keep and Bear Arms - Origins
Right to Keep and Bear Arms - Precedent
America, Always Armed....
The Right of Self Defense
And here is proof leading up to the late 1800's:
ReplyDeleteAfter The Fact
There is plenty more available, if needed. But, those links provide proof of how it SHOULD be.
BTW, David Codrea, from a reply he left to a comment I had left on 'Trigger Finger'. Gets credit for spurring me on for the research in the above links.
ReplyDeleteDavid had a DIRECT role.
Don't mean to be a space hog, but almost forgot this one:
ReplyDeleteThis provides some compelling evidence for the court, especially since it is FROM the U.S. Circuit Court.
U.S. Circuit Court, DISTRICT OF MISSOURI, SPECIAL TERM, July 10, 1861
Gentlemen,
ReplyDeleteRespectfully, you are not refuting my arguments you are making them.
I have read the links and cites (you)posted and I am familiar with many more BUT YOU ARE QUOTING FROM THE 1600'S, 1700'S, AND SOME FEW INTO THE 1800's.
In fact, quoting the "Massachusets body of liberties" from the 1600's seems right on point because no states that founded freedom have strayed farther from the constitution and the concept of free citizens than mass.
I'm not the enemy. I'm on your side. I want to believe
SHOW ME PRECEDENT, DICTA OR A MEANINGFUL JURISDICTIONAL SPLIT SINCE 1938.
Since 1938 20,000 gun laws have been passed and we take them for granted like sheep. 20,000+ gun laws when the second amendment says "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" - 20,000 gun laws looks an awful lot like infringment to me.
How could 20,000 gun laws that are clearly unconstitutional not make it to the supreme court in 68 years??? I think I know why. I want "you" to tell me because I want to have the myth exploded.
So if the second amendment is the amendment that secures all others do we even have a constitution anymore? Will your children live free in a constitutional republic or will they live in the American trade zone with a new constitution and rights averaged down between us and 20 third word countries? Is this a case of having bargained away our freedom for a few magic beans and totalitarianism is here already?
And if you think the second amendment is valid and the plain meaning can not be tampered with, please explain the "mccain / feingold" analogy.
I am asking to throw cold water on the second amendment "dog and pony show" and bring the argument to the reality of today. Further I am framing the argument in todays political circumstances - an apparent accelerated rush toward one worldism, open borders, massive influx of invaders, totally apathetic helmet wearing scared to go outside soccer mom society, pussification of the U.S. male, "alleged representatives" that know better than their constituents, and you can think of other reasons for our downward spiral without me.
AND MORE AND MORE COMPROMISE, more asking for permission, defacto /actual registration.
Every cowering statist idiot is against us. It is time to call a spade a spade and put our feet down.They have the media propaganda machine and the true enemies of freedom on their side (government, un, NGO's, big business, celebrities, blah, blah, blah)
Show me that we have any second amendment rights in 2006. Please.
I am looking for the creative way to bring it back - if it can be brought back or to fish or cut bait if it can't. Convince me the second amendment is not a cynical fundraising cry akin to "abortion on demand".
Do it..........for the children
(sorry, I couldn't help it)
Dave Licht
Firstly, the population must be convinced that the government is no longer acting as if they are our servants.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, the population must realize the inherent evil that is POWER. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So, the danger must be realized in order to spur We The People into action.
Thirdly, the FACT, that We The People ARE the TRUE LEGITIMATE and ULTIMATE AUTHORITY MUST be realized. As Samuel Adams put it;
"It doesn't require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires to people's minds."
We are fighting a war of attrition, first to let their guard down - loses.
There are some key ways to accomplish the objective;
1. Big money is calling the shots. Find out whom they are supporting. And then, hit them where it hurts - their pocketbook. Let them know that is why you are no longer buying their goods or using their services. Same with the politicians, let them know that you will NOT support them if they compromise our rights. In fact, you'll do everything in your power to unseat them if they do.
2. EDUCATION. The ONLY way that you can fight LIES, is with the TRUTH, (tempted to throw a lawyer joke in, but I'll abstain). This is not just a mental and physical war - it is spiritual - "Man will ultimately be governed by GOD or by ty-rants." - Benjamin Franklin. The founders of this country used their FAITH to win their freedom and liberty. Why not emulate them?
If it worked once, can it not again? When you know that you are on the side of right it gives boldness.
3. Media - Refute EVERY LIE, challenge EVERY FALSEHOOD, disprove EVERY CONTENTION. We have a better opportunity now, than we've had in years. People are afraid and on edge. Channel their fears and redirect it, utlizing it to drive people to reality. Instead of being duped by the minions of hell that are pumping out lies like one would gasoline. There are any number of ways of broaching the wall. For example, the tactic David has been employing now for quite a while - 'The Only Ones'. David is subtle with his comments and makes one think. Personally, I use the jack-hammer approach - hit hard, fast and repeatedly. Different strokes for different folks. There ARE more than a number of ways to skin a cat.
Perverse precedence is IRRELEVENT, in the TRUE sense. Things are not always as they appear. We get enough people believing the TRUTH, the false has no other choice than to melt away - or get hammered. If Hitler, Mao and Stalin rose with lies and gained such power. How much more can be gained from the TRUTH? Twelve men, speaking the truth helped bring Rome, the most powerful empire at the time - to its knees. Nothing is impossible to them that believe. If you think you can win, you will. If you don't, why the hell even try? All were talking about is ours, and our progenies freedom and liberty, after all....
P.S. - If you don't argue from the base, what have you to make your stand on?
ReplyDeleteMr. Licht, not only is the Second Amendment a dead letter, the entire Constitution is dead and gone. Ben Franklin told us that they had given us a Republic, if we could keep it. We have not kept it. The United States is now a fascist democracy. No amount of voting or protesting or petitioning or lawyering will change that. Dig in and prepare to survive the fall of the dinosaur. Or take up the fiddle.
ReplyDeleteThis fellow's just about "got it".
ReplyDeleteWhat is there about that Magical Parchment that sings to so many?
Isn't using a Magical Parchment like arguing for an extended leg chain?
It's easy to see where that's got everyone, ain't it.
Permits granted can turn into permits denied and as everyone knows you're on the database. Not good.
None of our pols has any of our best interests at heart, even if they knew what they were.
Why not just do it and tell no one, whatever it is you want to do?
I do.
The black flag, gentlemen, the black flag.
ReplyDeleteBill St. Clair is smack on in my view.
ReplyDeleteMost people don't even know what the Constitution is, never mind what it says.
A recent survey showed that more people polled could name more of the Simsons than could name items enumerated in the First Amendment.
Don't look to your neighbor for help in defending your Constitutional rights either.
We each are really on our own in any meaningful way and have to decide how much of an issue we are going to make of our freedom.
Many of us will simply choose to abdicate our freedom in exchange for being left alone by law enforcement.
Those who flaunt the law in an effort to regain lost liberties have fallen to a man, not one has come away unscathed. David has documented such cases, Angel comes to mind...
It is indeed a sad state of affairs. The best I can do is instill the intent of the founders to my children, not run afoul of the law so I can continue to be a father, and try to vote for people who will restore our liberties.
We don't take those 20,000 laws for granted--we're trying to roll them back. It took approximately three generations for us to get from there to here, a piece at a time; it will take about that long to get back to there, a step at a time.
ReplyDeleteI'm convinced we can win this way, and I'm not overly concerned that it won't be in my lifetime. (Re)securing the blessings of liberty is my life's work, and I won't live to see it finished. I labor in joyful hope that my sons will see it, when they are old men.
Abandoning this field because you think it's already over will only hasten the day when they actually try on confiscation, because they think no one cares enough to resist any more. By making our unshakeable will clear in this field and in this time, we can delay or deter that black day, and the cataclysm that will follow.
To be clear: I am not satisfied with the status quo, but if you want it all back right now, well, you don't need me to tell you what that's going to take.
When they come for your guns, just say "NO."
ReplyDelete"Show me that we have any second amendment rights in 2006. Please."
"Do it..........for the children "
David Koresh tried. Couldn't get his "day in court".
He died free.