Woman Sued for Rescue Effort in Car CrashI've had several occasions in the past to help those in need--and on two of those occasions placed myself in harm's way to intervene. But I have to say, the way things are going, I have a personal issue with the "sheepdog" analogy floating around the RKBA camp.
Legal Experts Say California Ruling Could Make Good Samaritans Hesitate
I don't see myself that way, have no desire to try and act like a hero, and don't consider the protective benefits society in general gets from me taking care of Number One. If it happens as a side effect, fine and good, but that's neither my intent nor my motivator.
It's too bad, but that's what people get for not taking care of themselves and criminalizing me taking care of myself. My goal is going to be to get away from danger. If that means I have to stop anyone trying to prevent me from doing that, again, that's a side effect, not my goal.
But isn't that inconsistent with all this "Three Percent" whoop-de-do, as detractors characterize it?
Not at all.
If it comes to that, it will mean I can't get away--all escape routes will have been sealed. At that point, I'll have some pretty ugly and terrifying choices to make.
So will you.
For now, we can either prepare for the possibility or we can deem it ridiculously improbable and remote, and disparage those who do.
[Via Steven K]
David, I see this as two separate issues. I agree the law sucks but that's CA in its normal way of life and the fast buck trial lawyers that seemingly have a death grip on that state.
ReplyDeleteThe other half of your point is a matter of what we all talk about in a thousand different way. Zombo and the hunter demeanor of not really supporting the Second Amendment. How many times have many of us used the term, Fat, Dumb and Happy, thousands. How about "sheep".
People are waking up in large numbers. The trick is to not blind side them with a ton of information in such a way you make them feel stupid for missing so much. Someone may as well say, "are you ever stupid to have been asleep for so long". Many folks are just down to earth working stiffs that are trusting and busy with family and the needs of a family.
"Whoop-de-doo"?
ReplyDeleteYeah--aren't we merry band of Three Percenters characterized by some, who read what they want out of things, as being all noise?
ReplyDeleteAll is forgiven.
ReplyDeleteDavid, since California does things quite differently than most anywhere else, this might not be a good example of the consequences of being a "Good Samaritan."
ReplyDeleteAs a health care professional, I've been in a "Good Samaritan" situation more than once. And that WAS in California. :)
So, would I place myself in this woman's position if I was still there? Maybe. Am I ever going back to California? Never.
Would I attempt to save someone HERE in Wyoming if the chips were down? You bet. And yes, the choices might get really ugly. Actually, some of them already are.
MML, I can't think of anywhere I could act as a Good Samaritan in a "sheepdog" capacity and not be forced by the law to flee afterward like a criminal.
ReplyDeleteI have to take a contrary position on this issue. The woman being sued based her decision to pull the co-worker from the car on all the training she'd gotten from the movies and television that convinced her that every wrecked vehicle is a firebomb waiting to go off. In much the same fashion we have to deal with all the "wisdom" our non gun associates have gathered about firearms from the same "reliable" sources.
ReplyDeleteSimple truth that far too many people are not aware of is that unless there is an immediate risk of fire it's always better to leave crash victims in a stable position until medical professionals can extract them safely. Pulling a person from a wreck because you saw a car explode on TV is just plain stupid and should not be encouraged.
I'm not a sheep, a sheepdog, nor a wolf. Maybe a coyote?
ReplyDeleteHmmmm. Probably a better description is a human; rational, loving and understanding liberty, not bowing to "authorities".
This is one of those cases where the "good samaritan" did not have enough training in emergency medical treatment to recognize that what she was doing made matters worse. It can be argued that such lawsuits stifle civic responsibility, but I argue that it was also disregarding civic responsibility to attempt emergency treatment when she knew full well she did so in ignorance.
ReplyDeleteIt depends on the circumstance. The defendant believed that the car might catch fire, but that's different from imminent death in a car fire. If the car was burning, then the defendant might have a sympathetic jury, since most people understand that alive and paralyzed is better than dead and char-broiled.
What is Kalifornistan going to do next? Probably make a law that say "Rape Victims Who Cry For Help Will Be Prosecuted For Disturbing The Peace"
ReplyDeleteThis "Samaritan" case would have been funny, if it wasn't so f*****g sad and pathetic.
I stick my neck out for nobody.
ReplyDeleteI'm contemplating challenging a law that perhaps might get me arrested in the process and the "mainstream gun bloggers" want nothing to do with me because I'm a "potential felon" for contemplating challenging a law they'd themselves like to see go away.
ReplyDeleteCan't win, either way with them folk.
Either you're a criminal or a nutbar or a mall ninja or whatever their insult of the day is when you're willing to put your neck on the chopping block for the collective good.
It's sort of like if all the blacks dogpiled Rosa Parks for not changing seats because she upset their un-easy truce with southern whites.
I must say...I'm leaning much more towards Sean's perspective as a result.
ReplyDeleteCan't say I've ever cared much for that "sheepdog" analogy. I don't work for the shepherd, and I don't herd sheep.
ReplyDeleteUnder the European Code Napoleon, you have a legal duty to render assistance, whereas in Anglo-Saxon law you don't.
ReplyDeleteIn this particular case, maybe the woman did do something stupid. I've come across car crashes where I've decided to leave things be for the rescue services, even though I could give first aid having had military training and earned a degree in Biological Sciences. But just because people are trying to help doesn't mean they are and, on the whole, it's probably a good thing if stupid people are deterred from over-estimating their own competence.
The more generalized case, in my opinion, is that it's up to your individual conscience and a realistic assessment of what you can usefully do.
I don't think this scenario really has anything to do with the Three Percenters issue. The Three Percenters are right, IMHO, and the Prags are wrong in the specific context of the situation citizens of the USA find themselves in - that's my opinion as an observer from the UK. I don't see how that issue is anything to do with whether you are competent to assess the state of injuries in an car crash and the mechanical condition and safety of the vehicle involved.
In fact, it's mostly on American TV shows that cars catch fire and explode. Blame Hollywood and the stupidity of people who think TV is real life..
Re: Sean
ReplyDeleteMe neither, except for my fellow Three Percenters and patriots.
"The woman being sued based her decision to pull the co-worker from the car on all the training she'd gotten from the movies and television that convinced her that every wrecked vehicle is a firebomb waiting to go off."
ReplyDeletei think this is relevant to the california case, but it is not relevant to the discussion at hand, which has launched itself beyond the nitty-gritty details of said court case.
besides, all the judge ruled on was that she could be sued for such activity. it's a matter of the victim's right to redress for this largely stupid act.
there is not a single CHL how-to from any respectable author which fails to point out that you must be absolutely, completely aware of what you are doing when you go "condition red."
Did all of the above writers read the 3-page article about the "makeup artists who had been drinking"?
ReplyDeleteThe now-paralyzed driver of the wrecked car knows that this suit will not hurt her former-friend financially (insurance will pay, and everyone knows that makeup girls who live at home with parents are broke 10 days before the next paycheck, but have nice/new everything), and this may be the last source of non-SSI income she ever gets.
Cars don't blow up without explosives. They do burn, but you have a little time to note burning well before a fuel tank ruptures to make the burning bigger and faster. Mostly, wrecked cars just sit there on their ruined wheels and rumpled metal. Modern cars are pretty darn safe, even the little imported gas-sippers, when driven by unimpaired experienced drivers wearing seatbelts.
Seatbelts are another isssue. The 3-point belt tends to grab the driver by the hips and left shoulder and twist her forward and to the left. This can cause serious lower spine injury. A 5-point "racing style" harness attached to a tubular or integral frame would save a lot of people from serious injury by this twisting action.
This is a "dumb & dumber" event, not even close to a "good samaritan " law. I do agree with Codrea about helping and fleeing. You aren't getting paid, so why be on TV or get identified? I'm going to help anyway, and excuse myself without identifying myself as the pro's pull up.
I was a Boy Scout until 18, then drilled in First Aid & Buddy Care, but I am not a "medical professional". Betcha that no one cares about my qualifications as I'm clearing an airway or applying pressure to a squirter. -kk
Sean said...
ReplyDelete"I stick my neck out for nobody."
Another Casablanca fan, huh? The only thing is, in the end, he did.
If somebody's willing to talk about money, maybe my neck gets a little longer. I'm a Viet-Nam combat vet, and we're like the Native Americans. We been f!@#@@! by so many people, so many times, we don't ask questions anymore.
ReplyDeleteI am a former EMT and Red Cross CPR Instructor.
ReplyDelete1. Unless the car is on fire or asome other situation that requires immediate movement for safety, leave the accident victim where you found them if they cannot move themselves. Get help. Stop bleeding and make sure that the victim has an open airway. If they don't, well...
2. We used to tell CPR students that "no one has been successfully sued" if they did not overstep their training and had a current CPR training card. That still left the possibility that someone could sue them, but all previous cases had been withdrawn, thrown out, or dismissed.
The irony is that in a non-professionaly capacity the people that you give first aid to are family, friends, and work associates.
I skipped the comments, so forgive me if it's been said.
ReplyDeletePutting trust in "sheepdogs" is what has brought us to this point. What is a politician? Are they not touted as "guardians" working to protect the herd?
How about just thinking of a 'porchdog' as my dad calls 'em. " No good for nuthin till the coyote is after the ginnies" Well the sheepdogs that Hairy hobbit sees have bred with some pretty nasty coyotes and wolves( maybe throw in a Hienna or too since they haven't any honor either) I don't like the herd to be honest but I will fight for em in the sense that thier rights are my rights. But same RoE, Get in the way and friendly fire ain't _______ (insert your own words there or just leave it as is like my Gunny used to do)
ReplyDelete