Definitely. Spot on about what it will be like, after the SHTF. Never go anywhere, no matter what, unarmed. Never go anywhere alone. When performing hard labor, take off your gun, place it nearby, and work, while someone trustworthy keeps a sharp eye out, armed and ready. Nobody to do that for you? Singloy. Get somebody, or join with some group. Alone you got nothin'. Best gun? .45 Auto. The right stuff.
Your right we need to eat more than you have to fight - that's why I advocate food storage, so there isn't a need to go wondering through the woods looking for a rabbit to blast - at least for the first couple of years.
No matter how much food you store, it's going to run out, especially if you don't supplement it with found food. Perhaps it's better to trap fish and game, or raise livestock, but that doesn't obviate the need for hunting small game. And there's no need to go "wondering" through the woods. You can set bait for many animals.
To refine my response, I would say that the .22 rifle is the only constant/must-have gun. Every other choice is arguable and dependent on personal preferences. I would say there's no wrong answer, and the debate itself is just tiresome.
The .22 has several advantages -- low recoil, low cost and light weight of both weapons and ammo -- that can't be found in any other platform. I've never met a .22 rifle that weighed more than 6 pounds, and it's a trivial matter to carry that around, along with a couple of 50-round boxes of ammo. The best gun is the one you have with you.
Even if you're wearing a handgun in a "serious" caliber, a rifle, even a .22, will give you extended range and accurate fire that would otherwise be unavailable.
I'm not suggesting the .22 as your only firearm, but it should be first on the list. Everything else is a personal choice.
I think you missed the point - the post wasn't about wilderness survival or hiding in the woods, but about survival after an economic collapse or peak-oil (peak Production) decline.
Everyone assumes that any type of collapse means the end of government. Wrong - look at Argentina (1999 - 2002)- Russia 1998 or America in 1929 or Zimbabwe to see an example of a collapsed system.
Governments do not relinquish power easily and in fact will most likely become even more oppressive during social unrest or economic collapse.
I hope I am wrong here, but using history as a guide, I can see the heavy hand of big brother gripping at our throats for a longtime to come.
As for food I have always advocated more than one food source, storage, hunting, trapping, gardening, domestic animals etc. It is stupid to rely on any one to many things can happen.
MD: I have to agree with cranky, If you want us to play your game you need to tell us the rules. When you say collapse, I think anarchy, not totalitarian government.
If it's Stasi I'm trying to avoid while at the same time fending off brigands I'm going to choose a different weapon than if it's a TEOTWAWKI free-for-all.
Since we don't know what all is coming, and we're not all in the same circumstances... seems to me this is a useless argument.
In the long run, we'll each do the best we can to prepare, then do whatever it takes to survive and roll with the punches.
I keep my .45 on my belt simply because I am personally responsible for my own life and safety. My rifle and/or shotgun is close at hand when I'm at home or on the range. I have a mutual defense community all around me and I'm never truly alone. Other than that, I'll just have to see what happens.
No matter what happens, or what we do to prepare, we'll all be better off than the poor fools who sit back expecting government to take care of them and keep them safe.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd recommend the following, in this order: (1) Glock or Sig pistol in 9mm or .40 (2) Kel-Tec Sub2k Carbine to match the pistol (3) 12 Ga. Pump shotgun - Mossberg 500 or Rem. 870 Express (4) "Battle Rifle" - best you can afford.
To me, .22 is a commodity like rice or beans - everyone should have them around. Rather than spend $ on a separate pistol or rifle, I'd get "conversion kit" - @~$250 for the pistol, ~$150 for an AR. These allow use of the same firearm for practice at greatly reduced cost.
Otherwise, keep your eyes open and grab what you can, cheap. I have a single-shot bolt .22 that was a freebie - ugly but functional. An "Iver Johnson" lever can be had at <$125... Personally I'd avoid semi-auto .22 because of simplicity.
I'll start with my Glock 22 for close-up and personal to medium range (<=25 yards). A 12 gauge shotgun of some sort - likely a Mossberg pump, followed by an AR 15-style rifle, mainly because of the widespread availability of ammunition.
I figure that if I'm lucky and resilient enough, anything else would be available from a recently-deceased adversary.
I have a perfect pistol and a well functioning .22 rifle.
Thats it.
Glock 19 (small modifications with extra parts/ springs/ barrel in zip-locks in my SHTF bag) Mossberg 702 duracoated reciever, milled stop, extra springs and mags- polished ramp.
Both guns have over 2000 rounds through them and are tested to the tune of 100-200 a month. Always ready- and never had an issue with either.
Whatever suits you in a heavy .30cal. I would tend to pick .308Win as the perfect balance of physical weight/size and range/hitting power/accuracy (in a highly discounted package due to whirrled military units "modernizing" to mass-fire .22 cal rifles claimed to be superior by the accountants) along with current US Mil stockpiles to supply the medium machine guns (and few remaining M-14's).
A buddy has an M-1 Carbine that is amazingly lightweight and convenient. It's ballistically equivalent to a hot .357Mag, It will harvest deer and stop wild dogs at beyond pistol range. 5 extra magazines in a belt or pouch weighs almost nothing.
Search "Sipsey Street 300M War".
.300WinMag is a trade off of more expensive/bigger/heavier everything and more throat erosion for more range. Your call. The US Army thinks that it's a good enough combination to make it available to sniper teams who don't want/need the weight/range of a .50BMG. I know that deer/elk/moose fall down at range when hit with .300WM just about the same as with .308Win. Use the correct bullet for the intended target.
What does SHTF mean? Is it rioting in the streets like Los Angeles in 1992? Or, is it a slow fade of general civility and increasing desperation as central governments lose legitimacy and capability?
22LR kills more deer than almost any other round, but these can only be "estimated" due to the unofficial nature of the harvests.
Once a person/family/association has a minimum firearms/self-defense capacity, spend on stored consumables like food and water, or systems to make food and water independent of municipal/government production systems. Over-spending on exotic weapon systems or massive redundancy (more than 10 rifles or more than 10K stored rounds per person) might turn out to be less useful than more mundane long-term supplies stocked deep with good OPSEC.
Definitely. Spot on about what it will be like, after the SHTF. Never go anywhere, no matter what, unarmed. Never go anywhere alone. When performing hard labor, take off your gun, place it nearby, and work, while someone trustworthy keeps a sharp eye out, armed and ready. Nobody to do that for you? Singloy. Get somebody, or join with some group. Alone you got nothin'. Best gun? .45 Auto. The right stuff.
ReplyDeleteIf you can have only one gun -- .22 rifle. You have to eat more than you have to fight.
ReplyDeleteCranky,
ReplyDeleteYour right we need to eat more than you have to fight - that's why I advocate food storage, so there isn't a need to go wondering through the woods looking for a rabbit to blast - at least for the first couple of years.
No matter how much food you store, it's going to run out, especially if you don't supplement it with found food. Perhaps it's better to trap fish and game, or raise livestock, but that doesn't obviate the need for hunting small game. And there's no need to go "wondering" through the woods. You can set bait for many animals.
ReplyDeleteTo refine my response, I would say that the .22 rifle is the only constant/must-have gun. Every other choice is arguable and dependent on personal preferences. I would say there's no wrong answer, and the debate itself is just tiresome.
The .22 has several advantages -- low recoil, low cost and light weight of both weapons and ammo -- that can't be found in any other platform. I've never met a .22 rifle that weighed more than 6 pounds, and it's a trivial matter to carry that around, along with a couple of 50-round boxes of ammo. The best gun is the one you have with you.
Even if you're wearing a handgun in a "serious" caliber, a rifle, even a .22, will give you extended range and accurate fire that would otherwise be unavailable.
I'm not suggesting the .22 as your only firearm, but it should be first on the list. Everything else is a personal choice.
Cranky,
ReplyDeleteI think you missed the point - the post wasn't about wilderness survival or hiding in the woods, but about survival after an economic collapse or peak-oil (peak Production) decline.
Everyone assumes that any type of collapse means the end of government. Wrong - look at Argentina (1999 - 2002)- Russia 1998 or America in 1929 or Zimbabwe to see an example of a collapsed system.
Governments do not relinquish power easily and in fact will most likely become even more oppressive during social unrest or economic collapse.
I hope I am wrong here, but using history as a guide, I can see the heavy hand of big brother gripping at our throats for a longtime to come.
As for food I have always advocated more than one food source, storage, hunting, trapping, gardening, domestic animals etc. It is stupid to rely on any one to many things can happen.
The best SHTF gun? Easy. The one you are carrying!
ReplyDeletePresuming, of course, that it's loaded. :-)
Ah, MD, so you weren't really asking a question, were you?
ReplyDeleteJust cut to the chase and tell us what gun we should buy.
What's the difference between SHTF and TEOTWAWAKI? And in which scenario do you go toe-to-toe with JBT?
MD: I have to agree with cranky, If you want us to play your game you need to tell us the rules. When you say collapse, I think anarchy, not totalitarian government.
ReplyDeleteIf it's Stasi I'm trying to avoid while at the same time fending off brigands I'm going to choose a different weapon than if it's a TEOTWAWKI free-for-all.
Since we don't know what all is coming, and we're not all in the same circumstances... seems to me this is a useless argument.
ReplyDeleteIn the long run, we'll each do the best we can to prepare, then do whatever it takes to survive and roll with the punches.
I keep my .45 on my belt simply because I am personally responsible for my own life and safety. My rifle and/or shotgun is close at hand when I'm at home or on the range. I have a mutual defense community all around me and I'm never truly alone. Other than that, I'll just have to see what happens.
No matter what happens, or what we do to prepare, we'll all be better off than the poor fools who sit back expecting government to take care of them and keep them safe.
Cranky et al, here's my $0.02...
ReplyDeleteAll of them.
If you're starting from scratch, I'd recommend the following, in this order:
(1) Glock or Sig pistol in 9mm or .40
(2) Kel-Tec Sub2k Carbine to match the pistol
(3) 12 Ga. Pump shotgun - Mossberg 500 or Rem. 870 Express
(4) "Battle Rifle" - best you can afford.
To me, .22 is a commodity like rice or beans - everyone should have them around. Rather than spend $ on a separate pistol or rifle, I'd get "conversion kit" - @~$250 for the pistol, ~$150 for an AR. These allow use of the same firearm for practice at greatly reduced cost.
Otherwise, keep your eyes open and grab what you can, cheap. I have a single-shot bolt .22 that was a freebie - ugly but functional. An "Iver Johnson" lever can be had at <$125... Personally I'd avoid semi-auto .22 because of simplicity.
$0.02/HTH...
There's no shame in having all the bases covered from the onset.
ReplyDeleteStart with the .22 rifle. Add the handgun of your choice. Go from there. There's literally dozens of right answers, and few wrong ones.
A rifle, the best I've got. Want something else? They'll be out there, stacked like commies at frozen Chosin. Semper Fi.
ReplyDeleteI'll start with my Glock 22 for close-up and personal to medium range (<=25 yards). A 12 gauge shotgun of some sort - likely a Mossberg pump, followed by an AR 15-style rifle, mainly because of the widespread availability of ammunition.
ReplyDeleteI figure that if I'm lucky and resilient enough, anything else would be available from a recently-deceased adversary.
I have a perfect pistol and a well functioning .22 rifle.
ReplyDeleteThats it.
Glock 19 (small modifications with extra parts/ springs/ barrel in zip-locks in my SHTF bag)
Mossberg 702 duracoated reciever, milled stop, extra springs and mags- polished ramp.
Both guns have over 2000 rounds through them and are tested to the tune of 100-200 a month. Always ready- and never had an issue with either.
Whatever suits you in a heavy .30cal. I would tend to pick .308Win as the perfect balance of physical weight/size and range/hitting power/accuracy (in a highly discounted package due to whirrled military units "modernizing" to mass-fire .22 cal rifles claimed to be superior by the accountants) along with current US Mil stockpiles to supply the medium machine guns (and few remaining M-14's).
ReplyDeleteA buddy has an M-1 Carbine that is amazingly lightweight and convenient. It's ballistically equivalent to a hot .357Mag, It will harvest deer and stop wild dogs at beyond pistol range. 5 extra magazines in a belt or pouch weighs almost nothing.
Search "Sipsey Street 300M War".
.300WinMag is a trade off of more expensive/bigger/heavier everything and more throat erosion for more range. Your call. The US Army thinks that it's a good enough combination to make it available to sniper teams who don't want/need the weight/range of a .50BMG. I know that deer/elk/moose fall down at range when hit with .300WM just about the same as with .308Win. Use the correct bullet for the intended target.
What does SHTF mean? Is it rioting in the streets like Los Angeles in 1992? Or, is it a slow fade of general civility and increasing desperation as central governments lose legitimacy and capability?
22LR kills more deer than almost any other round, but these can only be "estimated" due to the unofficial nature of the harvests.
Once a person/family/association has a minimum firearms/self-defense capacity, spend on stored consumables like food and water, or systems to make food and water independent of municipal/government production systems. Over-spending on exotic weapon systems or massive redundancy (more than 10 rifles or more than 10K stored rounds per person) might turn out to be less useful than more mundane long-term supplies stocked deep with good OPSEC.
Cheers.