Saturday, July 19, 2008

Anybody Know Latin?

The online translators have proven worthless. I'm trying to find out how to say "Any chair in a bar fight" to express my philosophy for responding to unprovoked aggression when there's no safe or honorable way out.

UPDATE: The closest approximation after being tried out for a while appears to be VLLA SELLA IN PVGNA IN TABERNA. 

08/11/2020 UPDATE: I have been told by someone who taught Latin for six years that the correct all-caps presentation is ULLA SELLA IN TABERNA PUGNA.

11/13/2023 UPDATE: I'm told it should be CVM VLLA SELLA IN TABERNA PVGNA.

24 comments:

Michael Hawkins said...

I speak Latin ...

By chair, you mean stool right? Sedes refers to a heavy, high chair.
I'll look up what a "bar" is in Latin ...

David Codrea said...

I was actually thinking a wooden chair, like John Wayne picks up by the back in a saloon and smashes over someone in an all-out barroom brawl.

Michael Hawkins said...

"Sella" it is then (which means just that) ... there's other options:
The latin word "scamnum, -i" refers to a small chair without a backrest, which could be used to say stool, no word means just that as romans either drank standing or lying down

I'll just go with sella, shares the gender with tabernula, which is a little shop, too small to house a workshop and thus usually used as wine stands.

To get the grammer right, I'm going to need you to type out the entire sentence you'd like to CONVEY, the latin will not have a lot of words, but a few letters of difference can change the entire meaning.

David Codrea said...

Hmmm...I don't want to go too far afield, like "It is appropriate to use any chair in a bar fight" or "I will use any chair in a bar fight" as I want it to be a general recommendation. Would adding the first word "Use" do it?

Use any chair in a bar fight.

"Any" being any within reach, available...

The intent, of course, is to convey if an attack is forced upon you, you are not bound by rules of "fairness" and can use whatever force--and available resources at your disposal--it takes to stop your assailant.

Anonymous said...

Chairs like these?

Michael Hawkins said...

How about:

"In a barfight, I'll defend myself with a chair of any kind"

(it's proving difficult to find a fitting adjective meaning "any")

jon said...

oh boy! i get to use my latin. it really was worth it! i should have kept my notes, all i have are the books.

taberna, -ae, feminine. stall, shop, pub.

first declension nouns are nominative, genetive, dative, accusative, ablative, vocative:

singular: -a -ae -ae -am -ā -a
plural: -ae -ārum -īs -ās -īs -ae

so "in a pub" is going to be "in" plus the ablative singular form of "pub." so we get:

in tabulā.

"any" is one of those weird -īus/-ī adjectives but it's nom. sing. genders are ūllus, ūlla, ūllum.

scamnum, -ī would be perfect but it refers to a footstool or stepping stool. it's not something you sit on. i guess that's the point, though -- it's not something you cream someone over the head with, either.

so until a latin professor comes along and corrects me:

"(with/by) any stool in a bar"

"in tabulā ūllō scamō."

to get truly fancy, we would add a conditional verb in a future tense.

future more vivid: "if in a bar, (i will) use/take any stool"

future less vivid: "should you be in a pub, use/take any stool."

jon said...

also the romans didn't have accent marks, those have been added by grammarians, i imagine. they also had no letter "u" and wrote in all capitals:

IN TABVLA VLLO SCAMO

jon said...

also everywhere i said "scamo" should be "scamno." whoops.

jon said...

last but not least, you might enjoy these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(full)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum

http://www.latinsayings.info/

and now i'll give the floor back, long overdue.

Michael Hawkins said...

Interesting use of "ullus", I was going to use qualislibet, also considered qualiscumque, but that could be interpreted wrong.

mine so far:

in pugno crapulae qualislibet sellae.

Crapula: drinking (event)

Pugnus: fist, fistfight (note: this is juxtapositioned to sellae, you'd use a chair rather than your fist

Qualislibet: of any possible sort

Anonymous said...

Oh brother! Why not just use English and be done with it? -grin-

I much prefer:

"All's fair in love and war."

Any aggression is an act of war.

David Codrea said...

I could, ML, but I wanted it in latin--kind of an artsy-fartsy slogan for WoG. I had no idea it could be this complicated to return to our roots.

I think between Michael and Jonathan we're real close. How about:
IN PUGNO TABVLA VLLO SELLA
?

Anonymous said...

I think Ezra Pound once opined that a
an accurate translation is rarely pretty and a pretty translation is rarely accurate. My two years of Latina Aeterna inclines me towards M. Hawkins "in pugno crapulae" as capturing a bit more of the intended flavor.

Michael Hawkins said...

Gramatically correct would be:

IN PVGNO TABERNAE VLLAE SELLAE

(oh yeah, taberna is a shop, tabula is a table)

it would translate to "with any chair in a barfight", but can also be taken as:
"(Seated) ON any chair during a barfight"

I would advise to add a "cum" (with) to prevent that:

"CVM VLLAE SELLAE IN PVGNO TABERNAE"

Anonymous said...

I am developing a mind's-eye picture of a bunch of Roman Legionnaires standing around Hadrian's Taberna & Grill trying to get the correct declension for "Where the hells is supper?" when a bunch of barbarians jumped over the wall and clobbered them with sellae.

David Codrea said...

Michael, I like it.

Anybody argue with it?

If not, I'll use it, and thank all who helped.

Michael Hawkins said...

yeah, one thing.

All of those words ending on AE should end on just A, I messed up the declinations and switched dative for ablative ... which of course sounds like chinese to you, rest assured, I made a dumb mistake.

so, and this should be final:
"CUM ULLA SELLA IN PUGNO TABERNA"

By the way, you are free to switch words (their position in the sentence) at will

Anonymous said...

So I guess "Al Dente sella" wouldn't work?

Anonymous said...

Sella al dente?

jon said...

"CUM ULLA SELLA IN PUGNO TABERNA"

by jo, i think we've got it. that looks good to me.

Robert said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum

That one is awesome. I actually have a coin issued to me while I was in the Army with that phrase on it!

Unknown said...

mensa is table, tabula is a writing tablet.

cvm vlla sella in pugno taberna.

I will vote for that.

Neil M Dunn said...

Most fun comment run I have read in a long time. Especially since I didn't understand much except to avoid bars/stools. Thanks.