I just took a cursory glance at their site, and will need to learn more before I can recommend joining.
They say they’re not a “politically-charged grou[p] like the NRA and other firearm organizations.” Instead, they say they “are, if you will, a calm, rational alternative for the 60 million households who lawfully choose to own a handgun.”
Fine. Not everyone can be an activist. There is room for recreational/educational clubs, and they can do much good in promoting an interest in shooting handguns, which can result in an interest in defending the right to own one. But claiming to be a “calm, rational alternative” implies those fighting for the right to keep and bear arms are agitated (fair enough) and irrational (hey, wait a minute...).
This raises a flag for me. An unequivocal statement of support for the Second Amendment--along with some examples to demonstrate their understanding of "shall not be infringed"--would help alleviate concerns.
Just who is behind HCA? Who are the people who want us to send them money? A register.com WHOIS lookup identifies one Josh Manheimer of J.C. Manheimer & Company as the registrant—although it’s not clear if he’s the principal behind the effort or an agent of those who are. I’ve never heard of him—either in the gun rights community or as someone of note in the field of handgun expertise. A Google search on his name turns up nothing in terms of any kind of "street cred" in the firearms community—although I do note he raised $100 for Howard Dean in 2004.
Yeah, Dean used to have an NRA "A" rating (for what that's worth), but he's on record supporting the "assault weapon" ban, the Brady Bill, and ending the "gun show loophole." He also has no problem with states ignoring the Bill of Rights--at least as far as the Second Amendment goes. Manheimer's support--if he is a principal behind HCA as opposed to a paid pr guy-- raises another flag for me.
What Manheimer is is a direct mail copywriter, a pro at crafting words so that people in his target market will want to buy the product or service he has contracted to promote.
That's great. If you want to attract people, you have to know how to do it. His advertising expertise is impressive and the HCA site reflects this.
But that's all style--I have another concern--another flag--about substance: On their “Gun Safety Rules” page, HCA tells us to:
"Store firearms and ammunition separately. When cleaning a firearm, put ammunition in a separate room or locked up out of reach.
"Stored firearms should be unloaded to prevent accidents when removing from their storage location. Ammunition, especially while cleaning a firearm, should be stored separately."
Well, sorry, but if I do that, it becomes useless for emergency defense. This seems to be the same advice we get from Andrew McKelvey’s Americans for Gun Safety, which tells us to: “Keep your ammunition as safe and inaccessible as your firearms.”
And it's the same position adopted by the Brady Center, which has initiated a Legal Action Project because they say “a majority of gun owners living with children do not store their guns locked, unloaded, and separate from ammunition.”
We see that when applied uniformly in the real world, such one-size-fits-all policies can result in nasty, brutal things--like pitchfork murders--where minors couldn’t reach a gun to save their lives.
I think HCA needs to address this.
Bottom line: HCA may turn out to be a fine organization. Mr. Manheimer may turn out to be a handgun enthusiast who has created something that will benefit gun owners. He may turn out to be a hired marketing consultant for someone else.
But until we find out who is behind HCA and whether or not they really support the Second Amendment--and how they do so--I can’t recommend giving them any money. Some sport shooters almost got burned by the American Hunting and Shooting Association until some curious folks started checking up on them.
I'll go this far in joining the other gun bloggers who recommend checking out HCA:
Yes, by all means, do so.
38 comments:
Sorry, but the whole "calm, rational alternative" thing leaves me cold. I don't trust them as far as I can throw a bull!
Let me see here, the second amendment says ".........shall not be infringed."
The constitution is the supreme law of the land.
So these morons are promoting a "calm rational alternative" to observing the law? Isn't that called criminal activity?
Morning, gentlemen. Thanks for checking out the Handgun Club of America and doing your homework. I'll try to address your questions and concerns one at a time.
STORING FIREARMS. Many folks have different thoughts about how to safely store firearms and ammo. Indeed, it is my understanding that state laws can differ on this issue, but perhaps we at HCA have errored on the side of caution. Since you have a raised an important issue, I will get you a better answer from someone who knows more than I about this stuff. (Stay tuned.) However, the bigger point is ... this is a Club for members just like yourself, and you can really help us fine tune things and "get it right." Keep those inquiries and suggestions coming. Come join. Be an HCA Advisor. We value your opinions.
No, we are not a front for a left, liberal-leaning organization. We have no political agenda, nor do we intend to push it on anyone. Which is our other point and reason for existence. Bad guys do not discriminate between Democrats and Republicans. And, frankly, a lot of people are turned off by the polarizing debate. So we figure, okay, obviously we're for gun rights, but let's just stick to our guns and appeal to everyone without the heated rhetoric. If I can sign up a few million Howard Dean supporters who want to protect themselves with handguns, well, I've won the battle without having a fight. Always a good thing. Catch more flies with honey, and all that.
Are we morons for starting this Club and positioning ourselves as a calm, rational alternative? I hope not. Talk to me in a few years and let's see how many folks join because of our strategy. If it works, great. If you've got a better tag line, by all means send it in. If it's good, we'll use it!
We're all pulling on the same end of the rope. Why not join us? You get all your money back if you're not happy.
All the Best,
Josh Manheimer
Founder and President
Handgun Club of America, LLC
handgunclub.com
The Editorial Director of the Handgun Club of America is named Bill Caffrey.
Here's his own website. He looks very solid.
http://dragon.hematite.com/gunintro.html#domail
Hi all
My name is Rick Mastin, I am a member of the NRA,IDPA and our local club. I also am the VP at Waller and Son inc. I met Josh via friend and gunshop owner Greg Henderson here in NH. I have no idea about Josh's expertise in weapons handling but, do know that he is a handgun owner. He belives strongly in our 2nd amendment. I know he is one of the quite handgun owners here inn the USA. I think he has a good idea getting the rest of them together. At least it will be one large voice. I think his site will help gather up the folks who are not NRA members or members of other organizations that more vocal I guess is the best way to put it. Maybe help strenghten the NRA and the other 2nd amendment folks.
I do not always agree with the NRA as they seem to be well... a little to big. But, I admit they are a gorilla on a lot of backs where we need them.
I think we as gun owners need all the voices we can get.
Just my thoughts
If the NRA is offering chocolate, it seems reasonable to that a new organization like the Handgun Club of America give people who own a handgun another flavor to choose from.
Why confuse things by insisting HCA blend in? Then they're just preaching to the converted. The goal is to EXPAND the handgun audience. That requires, in my mind, more than one approach.
Personally, I appreciate their bold step into what is potentially hostile territory. If they succeed, we all win.
Here's my problem: Most politically liberal gun owners to whom I have been exposed are willing to compromise on "gun rights". Sure, they support gun ownership...as long as you're talking about "reasonable" gun ownership...reasonable, of course, meaning as long as you only want to own guns of which they approve. It doesn't bother them at all to ban certain types of guns or calibers, or styles...as long as they aren't the calibers, types or styles that THEY prefer.
How many opinion pieces have you seen that start with "I support gun rights and own several guns" but end with "and that's why I don't think people NEED to have guns like _____" (fill in the blank with the "Evil Gun Of The Week).
We don't need an organization that purportedly supports gun rights while advocating incremental gun control. That is what I fear we will see from this "calm, rational alternative". But only time will tell.
What's wrong with Howard Dean? He was the Governor of Vermont for 4 terms, and Vermont is the envy of all gun owners, requiring NO permits or restrictions on gun ownership, other than you have to be 18.
Sailorcurt,
The solution to the problem, from my point of view, is the Handgun Club of America will not even enter into the debate.
There are plenty of other organizations who will; who needs another one? If we stick to our knitting, and talk about how to clean your Beretta, rather than which Beretta you should own, we can attract those who are turned off or intimidated by the heated rehetoric. End result: more people own firearms and learn how to use them safely, responsibly, and skillfully.
That's a good thing, don't you think? Why not join us, contribute, and help build a strong organization for handgunners across the nation? We'd love to have you on board.
Josh Manheimer
Founder and President
Handgun Club of America
handgunclub.com
I think it might be very important to have a handgun organization that is not politically motivated. I don't doubt that there are thousands of handgun owners that are not members of the NRA simply because the NRA is too far to the right for their tastes. Like me for instance. The Right to Bear Arms should not be supported only by "right wing gun-nuts" but by everyday Americans. What we need to do is to convince more people that personal safety and handguns go (forgive me) hand-in-hand.
I would like to see a non-partisan political organization that has one stated purpose. Making sure that the 2nd Amendment is the only gun law in the US. And get away from the left wing/right wing rhetoric.
I do not believe that there is any use for a gun organization that is not political.
I particularly disdain the "reasonable alternative" concept. What part of "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" do these people not understand?
In an era when the NRA is absolutely A.W.O.L. and is doing everything they can to "Endorse existing gun laws" we do not need organizations of milk toast or elitist gun owners that will work for COMPROMISE of the second amendment.
We need minutemen. I would not support any organization that is advancing the NRA's "Endorse existing gun laws" CRAP. I would NEVER support any firearms organization that did not believe that gun laws are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Period.
I am a citizen not a subject and I presume most regulars of this site are too. I want nothing to do with the "subjects" compromising MY RIGHTS by the day. These "subjects" are making me increasingly sick and fearful for the future of my children. Who knows what they will be willing to give away next.
THERE IS NO COMPROMISE. THERE IS NO REASONABLE GUN LAW, There is no legitimate constitutional gun law and people with limited time and resources should not be deluded into supporting gun control organizations masked as social clubs cooperating (by ommission if nothing else) with our steady loss of the 2nd amendment because they do not understand the constitution, history or the intent of government (any government) to control or the ramifications (look to New Orleans)
Sorry - Absolutely NO USE for a firearms sewing circle dreaming that they are the "reasonable alternative"
D
If you're just the founder of a hobby group, come out and say it, Mr. Manheimer.
You won't get a dime of my money or my membership if you don't stand up for the 2nd Amendment against all violations, 100% of the time.
Until then, I will continue supporting Gun Owners of America. There are plenty gun clubs around my area that accomplish the same thing you're trying to set up.
If you "stay out of the debate", you do the 2nd Amendment crowd no good at all.
"Anonymous said...
What's wrong with Howard Dean? He was the Governor of Vermont for 4 terms, and Vermont is the envy of all gun owners, requiring NO permits or restrictions on gun ownership, other than you have to be 18."
Anonymous-- I presume you know how to read. Go back and click on the link I put in the piece and you'll see "what's wrong with Howard Dean."
Vermont's lack of gun edicts are not his doing. If you forget what I say and just focus on what Howard Dean says himself, you'll see he supported the federal semiauto ban AND the Brady bill.
That's "what's wrong with Howard Dean."
Unless you happen to agree with him.
Mike,
I'm the founder of a hobby group. I hope someday it'll be a really big hobby group. I want to talk about handguns, tactics, and new equipment. Not politics.
Dave, if you're thirsty, you can get a Coke, a 7-UP, an Orange soda. Why not offer handgunners more than one flavor? People are different and have different tastes.
For reasons that aren't quite clear to me, there are not more options available to someone interested in learning how to safely use a handgun. And yet, there are 60 million households who have them. You don't have to be a marketing genius to realize there is an opportunity to provide an alternative.
The end result, of course, is that more people -- the very people you are trying to persuade -- will learn how to safely and responsibly use their firearms. Otherwise, you're just preaching to the converted.
For what it's worth, I had a couple of friends who were murdered down the road from me a few years ago. Throats slit by two teenage kids who gained entry by pretending to be doing a school project. That's when I realized I needed to do something if I wanted to protect myself, my wife, and two daughters. My tennis racquet wasn't going to save us. So I bought a Baretta handgun. And then a Walther. And then a Taurus ... I got the bug.
Anyway, in my area there was not a lot of information available about how to use my weapons ... with all the legal implications. There were a few forums online that were helpful, but finding the information I wanted wasn't that easy. The NRA was helpful in telling me which politican to vote for, but it wasn't that useful in answering basic questions I had about weapons and tactics. My local gun club meets once a month, but you have to bring a casserole, and, well, I could just never find the time to get there.
As I talked about my dilemma with others, I discovered I wasn't the only handgunner lost in the wilderness. There were many people who were interested in information about personal and home defense without the heated political rheteric.
Well, one thing lead to another. I learned a lot. Met guys who were REALLY knowledable about handguns. And decided to start a club that just focused on handgunners ... with their help.
I'll be the first to admit, I'm no firearms expert. But my job is to hire great people, make sure members feel like the club is a great value, offering everything they want ... and take out the trash.
Perhaps there is a better way to phrase who we are and what we're about so we don't offend those who take the 2nd amendment really seriously.
I'm all ears to your suggestions.
Josh Manheimer
Founder and President
Handgun Club of America
handgunclub.com
Josh,
I do not begrudge anyone identifying a business opportunity and seizing the opportunity, that is not the point.
The point is that firearms are political by there very nature. The second amendment is the right that secures all other rights.
And the 2nd amendment is being assaulted, diluted and destroyed by the day. It may not survive - Freedom may not survive to embrace my children and their children - and yours Josh.
Could it be that those many handgunners you identify as "lost in the wilderness interested in the information" are to self centered, lazy or lacking testicles to insure the constitution survives?
It's the true believers, willing to stand by Patrick Hentry's side that provide for your little club to potentially survive.
The gun owning pansy's that are skeer'd to be political should go to hell - or New Orleans. The concept is offensive -I could not look myself in the mirror supporting such a sewing circle.
And when the constitution is disolved and your sewing circle members are asked to register their crochet hooks - what then? Will it then be time to get political or are your potential members (I hate to say, those people without the guts to stand up and say something) going to just ask where to hand them in?
No milk toast for me, sorry.
Dave
Dave,
Lazy? I'm starting a nationwide club to help handgunners learn how to handle life and death situations with skill, choose the best equipment available, and use their firearms safely. It's a lot of work! And I guarantee that if I can sign up a million members -- particularly members who might not normally join a gun club or read a firearm magazine -- I will have a far better chance of advancing gun rights in America, than by arguing over the issues.
It's another approach to achieve the same end.
When you try to capture a city, some take the left flank, others take the right. Does that make us a sewing circle?
Dave, if you come to Vermont someday, stop on by and we'll go to the range together. After a few hundred rounds, I'm sure there won't be any more talk about a sewing circle.
All the Best,
Josh Manheimer
Founder and President
Handgun Club of America
handgunclub.com
Your group is useless.
It is apparently for hobbyists who will take up R.C. Models or something similar, once handguns are banned. If I want a "handgun only" club, I'll join a handgun sport organization.
There was a recent attempt by some Joyce foundation assholes to create a shill organization ... I suspect this is a better organized attempt at something similar.
If you will not support the right to keep and bear arms, then I have no use for you or your organization.
It seems as if this Handgun Club of America is our ally.
Since we don't have to give up our beliefs, why not be supportive? The more help, the better.
Besides, as my grandfather used to say to me, "What if they're way is right and you're way is wrong!"
A little humility is always a good thing.
I am political about carrying and owning guns. But I am also calm and rational about it when dealing with GGW's. You have to be to persuade people. Getting up in their face and yelling "it's my f***ing right to have a gun" is not going to help. It's just going to present you as another gun-nut with the emphasis on nut. When someone asks why I should be allowed to carry in bars as we recently tried to do here in Arizona, I explain that it's not just bars, it's restaurants too. I explain that it would not be mixing guns and alcohol as was argued since if you're carrying you can't drink. And that they only people the law addresses are law-abiding citizens anyway since the criminals are going to carry regardless of the law.
So what's wrong with calm and rational? What's wrong with non-political? After all if you own and use a gun you obviously believe you should be allowed to and guns have never been just a hobby for anyone.
And what kind of secret agenda do you see here? Some kind of conspiracy to see who owns a handgun? Or perhaps once everyone joins they'll slowly be persuaded to switch to BB guns, then paint-ball guns, to cap-guns until they're all dis-armed. Oh please.
My goal is to eliminate all gun laws except one. And everytime I see some conspiracy theorist spittin' chaw and complaining 'bout the gubmint taking away 'r guns I know that my goal has been knocked back one more step because they've polarized someone into believing guns = gun nuts.
You want to be political? Then get calm and rational. Offer reasoned arguments not rhetoric. Support politicians that support the 2nd Amendment. Run for office yourself. Speak loudly! And calmly.
I really don't understand, outside other speculative reasons, why you are trying to establish a hobby group that does not address the right to keep and bear arms.
What is the point? You know that the RKABA is under attack and are willing to say NOTHING in support of the 2nd Amendment because you construe such a thing as being "political". How does being a free citizen with what little shred of personal liberty we have left equate to being political? How does my self-defense from domestic and foreign threats constitute something that is political? If you don't educate people about their rights, they won't even know they had them to begin with.
Surely, since you're a handgun organization, you'd be against banning handguns, wouldn't you? Hypothetically, if you took a stand against handgun bans, wouldn't that be political?
Not much of this adds up. I SUSPECT that there may be ulterior motives here, but I hope that isn't the case.
Mike/Kris,
What I hear you guys saying is that if we have NO mention of 2nd amendment issues, we risk being labeled a liberal organization with ulterior motives and will not get your support.
Well, we don't want that to happen.
I guess I can see your point. It's the reality of the world we live in. You guys have been burned before, and you're very suspicious.
Well, that's an easy fix. We'll just add a 2nd amendment section. (In fact, I believe we already have one. Our Editorial Director, Bill Caffrey, has spoken quite eloquently on the subject in the past, and I believe his comments are now online. My point, if it's not already clear, is that this is not the raison d'etre of the club. We're trying to provide an alternative to differentiate ourselves and attract a larger audience. )
Aside from standing up for the rights of gun owners, what else do we need to do so the Handgun Club of America will appeal to you all? What kind of handgun related articles would you like to see in our newsletter?
Josh Manheimer
Founder and President
Handgun Club of America, LLC
handgunclub.com
So, what you are saying is that you want an organization designed for people who wish to enjoy the fruits of freedom while avoiding the burdens of supporting said freedom?
I am a member of the Virginia Citizen's Defense League (as well as otehrs). The VCDL is an all-volunteer, not for profit organization that constantly fights for gun rights in this state as well as assisting other state organizations in their battles. We devote our personal time, energy and money to ensuring that all Virginians have as free and unfettered right to keep and bear arms as we can possibly provide for. We have had some great successes in the past decade.
Were we all to take the attitude that this new organization seems to be espousing, they probably wouldn't have the right to own a handgun in the first place. I will not financially support an organization that does not participate in the battle to maintain the freedoms that they purport to celebrate. (And that is NOT rhetoric...it is a constant BATTLE against a very small, but vocal and motivated anti-gun minority).
Versus characterizing us as partisan and overzealous, you would receive a better response in this venue by being appreciative of those of us who have been thanklessly fighting for YOUR right to own a handgun for lo these many years.
In our country, you are free to pursue whatever legal endeavor you wish. After reading some of your responses, I am relatively convinced that your motives are good. But good intentions do not provide results. Start translating some of your "non-partisan" gun owners into fellow soldiers in the battle for second amendment rights and I'll gladly support your efforts.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigues of supporting it."
--Thomas Paine
"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you."
--Pericles
Curtis Stone
Sailercurt,
Thanks for fighting so I and others can own and use a handgun. It's much appreciated.
Josh Manheimer
Founder and President
Handgun Club of America, LLC
handgunclub.com
P.S. Can you show me how to use my new little Kel-Tec? Choose the right ammo for it? And decide whether I should always carry a round in the chamber? Can you help me figure out how I should safely store my firearms when my three-year old is in the house? Can you tell me which states will let me carry and which ones will put me in jail? I'm still not sure how to best defend my family if an intruder breaks into our home? What do I need to say (or not) if deadly force should be necessary? Revolver or semi-auto -- I still go back and forth. One I can shoot easily out of my pocket, if necessary, but the other offers more firepower and is easier for me to reload. How do I decide? Which targets do you think are best to buy? Which flashlights? What are your feelings about Crimson Trace laser grips -- do they help or hurt? My Walther doesn't have a safety, but my Beretta does -- how come? Which one is safer? Do pistol trigger locks really work, or can you break into them with a ball point pen? If they don't work, how should you lock up your firearm ...at home? In the car? On your hip? By the way, which firearm is best for concealed carry? Which holster? What if you're a woman? A LEO? Elderly? Do you have to retreat if someone is wielding a knife in your home, or can you go after them with deadly force?
If you are looking for answers to tough questions like these, or you can provide helpful information for other handgunners, then you're now on HCA turf. This is what we're about. Helping members be smarter, safer, more skillful handgunners.
Josh, now I understand the "calm, rational alternative". A handgun group that is apolitical and wishes to stay that way is O.K. Remember, though, "Just because you don't take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." (Author unknown)
Mr. Manheimer said: "Thanks for fighting so I and others can own and use a handgun. It's much appreciated."
You're welcome...but...
"As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words, but to live by them."
--John Fitzgerald Kennedy
"PS. Can you show me how to..."
Yes...and no. Of course I would be willing to answer your questions as would any gun enthusiast at any gun range in the country...all you have to do is ask. Of course, my answers might not be right because most of the questions you asked pertain specifically to personal preference. I, personally, would not trust my life to anything smaller than .45acp. Am I wrong? Perhaps that particular foible is rooted in the fact that I spent 21 years in the military during the preeminence of Mr. Browning's Crowning Glory: the M1911. One of the gun shop owners around here carries a .38 special revolver because he doesn't trust autoloaders and thinks I'm crazy for lugging around such a heavy weapon.
The basic fact is that people who are learning about weapons can get opinions anywhere if they only ask. But they'll need to get to the range, try some things out and find what they are comfortable with to make their own decisions. You don't need a national organization to do that.
Mr. Caffrey stated: "Since I can't work full time and lobby politicans (besides, I'm allergic to politicans)"
Please don't patronize and don't rationalize your own shortcomings. Do you think that the members of the VCDL DON'T have full time jobs? Do you think we enjoy going to City Council meetings and State Legislature meetings after a full day's work and arguing with people who can officiously look askance at us from their exalted offices, cut off our efforts to speak and officiously declare that THEY know what's best so we should just shuffle off and pay our homage?
In point of fact, most of the members don't make enough money (including myself) to devote it to endeavors that do not actively participate in protecting the rights that they purport to espouse. We haven't the financial wherewithal to indiscriminately dispense money to useless "clubs", but we do what we can...we give of our time and effort with no regard to making a profit...which I expect your endeavor is primarily about.
I'm as "allergic" to politicians as the next guy. But if WE don't remind them that THEY ARE OUR EMPLOYEES, who will? Obviously not you.
Perhaps to those sitting uninterestedly on the sidelines, it seems that groups like ours unnecessarily cry wolf and act as if the axe is falling on our gun rights. But, then again, perhaps if those sitting uninterestedly on the sidelines, enjoying the rights that WE fight for, acutally paid attention and took action, they would realize HOW MANY gun control proposals are presented and defeated each year and HOW MANY of their representatives don't trust them with the means to defend themselves (all while sitting inside the secure environs of gated communities and private (armed) bodyguards), and how much work it takes to protect the rights that they take for granted...even though we have families, and jobs, and other interests.
But, then again, it's much easier just to sit around and discuss the merits of revolvers over autoloaders and argue about which holster is the best for concealed carry.
"The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
--John Stuart Mill
Hey Sailorcurt -
You are obviously very well read and I appreciate your comments.
When people like Mr. Manheim and the great (uninformed) middle that he is trying to co-opt say that they are "speaking for the reasonable alternative" that translates from the french into "We are too lazy to get off our fat asses to PROTECT OUR OWN CHILDREN (OR YOURS) FROM BEING SOLD INTO TOTALITARIANISM, islam or SLAVERY -
I'm sure Mr. Manheim will be very successful attracting large numbers of simpering non critical thinkers. Unfortunately, this is three card monte and those of us that truly believe in the US Constitution and particularly those of us that believe that the second amendment is the amendment that secures all other G-D given rights will be the true loosers for his "efforts".
What is that old saying.....Divide and conquer...?
For me, the whole concept conjures up a complete lack of respect and images of girly men with absolutely no testicular fortitude.
It makes me sad and apprehensive for the future of my children and the children I hope they will have. I want my children and their future generations to live in freedom and I will do everything within my power to see that happens.
It also makes me mad, that people like Mr. Manheim would seek to divide us and minimalize the importance TO MY CHILDREN of maintaining a united front of HONORING the constitution.
Last, in light of the confiscations and totalitarian tactics used against law abiding citizens of New Orleans, I personally believe that the idea of being non political, read that "not militant" is unconscionable. Bordering on treason against the constitution - the true law of the land.
Sailorcurt, you could not be more on the money.
Thank you
D
Look here. I am an employee of Mr. Manheimer. You can see my articles on the Second Amendment everywhere on the Web. Search for "Boris Karpa."
Mr. Manheimer is doing an important job for the Second Amendment - he's making sure more people own guns. When more people own guns, more people have an investment in this important freedom. We all win.
Sorry if I don't find the job very "important" or the rational very pursuasive.
D
"he's making sure more people own guns. When more people own guns"
Microbalrog, I appreciate your sentiments and support; although, as a non-us citizen, your opinions carry no weight here other than to the extent that you can garner public support.
With that said, How, exactly, is Mr Manheimer "making sure more people own guns?"
By answering questions that the vast majority of "good ole' boys" at any American gun range could answer?
Is his club going to intice people who would otherwise be averse to owning guns to purchase one?
No.
The people to whom he is catering, are the people who want to enjoy freedom without having to put forth the effort of maintaining it.
They will buy guns regardless of what the NRA or ILA or GOA or VCDL or any number of acronyms do. They are ALREADY interested.
What Mr. Manheimer's club is doing is giving them an out. It is giving them the opportunity to reap the benefit of the knowledge of those of us who have spent years in the support of gun ownership without the inconvenience of having to face the sacrifices that have been necessary to maintain the very rights that they wish to exercise.
I laud your opinion pieces and your support of the second amendment. But all the columns in the world won't stop the gun grabbers from taking OUR guns (not yours...Sarah Brady has no influence in Isreal). What stops them is dedicated men and women who attend city council meetings, who speak at state legislative sessions, who file lawsuits when rights are violated by overzealous officials, who write letter after letter after letter to congresspeople and governors and presidents. Those who make sure the word gets out when good people use guns to protect themselves in spite of Main Stream Media blackouts. Those who write scathing letters to the editor when newspapers misrepresent the facts about gun ownership. Those who counter the biased, innaccurate and intentionally misleading "studies" conducted by the anti-gun lobby to support their arguments.
People of ACTION ensure the viability of our God-given and constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms. Not just people who own guns.
If for no other reason, because the gun grabbers always target the "other guy's" gun. It's always the "sniper rifle" or the "saturday night special" or the "assault weapon". Non-active people who can't be bothered with the details of the fight to maintain the second amendment don't bother to find out that the "sniper rifle" really means any rifle that is accurate enough to hunt with or that the "saturday night special" means any handgun that is affordable or that the "assault weapon" is any weapon capable of holding more than a certain (constantly diminishing) number of rounds (anyone own a Ruger 10-22? Now THAT'S an assault weapon...)
But as long as the gun grabbers aren't specifically naming THEIR weapons and making it SOUND like they are targeting guns that they don't NEED (do you NEED a 42 inch plasma TV? who gets to decide that NEED?) they'll go right along like the sheep that they are. And then they'll bleat "But, But, But..." when the gun grabbers come to take their guns away.
That's enough. My rants are long enough as it is.
My point:
If you are a gun owner, you had BETTER be a gun rights activist or you won't be a gun owner for long.
And all the sheep said: "But, But, But..."
When I first heard about this group I had believed the worst because gunnies have been burned before. But after reading enough here I actually do see their value.
See, I come from Washington State. Yes, rumor has it that there are gunnies there (and the gun laws are pretty good there, I know this now), but being a west coast state, as you might suspect, I grew up not knowing ANYTHING about gun handling, being quite surprised by the fact that my step dad kept a rifle in our garage (which he never once fired and, as I later learned, didn't even know what kind of ammo to put in it), and, as a result, never had any clue.
I then moved to Texas and it was shocking to see how people thought of guns. Heck, I went to a gun show once on a lark and saw someone leaving it with a shotgun over their shoulder in the middle of Houston. Needless to say, my jaw nearly hit the floor.
What was my largest problem? Simple. Lack of familiarity with the subject. I simply had no clue and was generally scared of them.
See, the other thing is that I don't make friends easily. I guess it is just because I am not the most outgoing individual, and am generally terrified to go up to and talk to someone.
Well, after living in Houston for a while, I met someone who had somewhere around 30 different firearms and he tought me a lot in the couple months I got to know him, and we went to the range about 7 times. Afterward he moved away, after buying my first firearm for me (Remington 870 Express w/24" barrel).
Now, at this time I was not political at all, but I liked what I saw and decided that I wanted to learn to shoot. Well, I had no clue what to do and the NRA still intimidated me a bit, but I wanted to learn. The way I ended up learning was because I am highly IT savvy, and started searching the internet like mad.
I have since learned quite a bit and have picked up a couple other toys. The rifle that my step dad had he has now passed down to me (a Remington 788 chambered for 22-250. He thought that because it said 22 that it took 22 LR, and kept trying to load it with those in the past and when they wouldn't fit in the chamber he gave up. The scary thing about this was that he was in the Navy so I would have thought he would have known better, but I am going back and restoring it after years sitting out in a garage and will one day present it to him and show him how to shoot it), and a Charles Daly 1911 (couldn't afford too much more at the time but WANTED a handgun). I fully intend to increase that collection when I can, but the Wife is still terrified of them and the fact that I have what I have already.
I have also had the pleasure of shooting with Doc Russia once, but beyond that, have not met anyone that I can learn from much yet, or go shooting with who knows more than me (odly enough, a lot of people look to me for answers now only because of how much I have been studying).
Why do I relate my story? Simple, because I have met a lot of people that are still ignorant of the poligical side of it, or are turned off by it, and know almost nothing about firearms but own one and keep it in the closet. This was sort of like me in the beginning and if I had a group like the HCA at the time to teach me more about them, once I became knowledgeable, I would have naturally started talking with people.
And that is when the whole RKBA and right to carry comes into it. You meet other shooters, they mention that your right to own that very thing you enjoy using is in danger, and you WANT to know more. You've spent a year or so with it and you don't WANT to give it up.
At this point I am starting to look at the HCA, whether or not they know it or want to be looked at like this, as the conservative equivelant of these liberal groups that pop up and say they are "gun" groups but then endorse liberals who want to grab their guns. Simply because you will get the clueless people in there, get them hooked, then they will go out and want to preserve their "hobby" as they see it. Not all, and certainly they will get a lot of the "responsible" people, but then again they are a handgun club, and anyone who is willing to own a handgun has the capacity to figure out just how important our RKBA is.
I now research firearms every chance I get, and try to (job permitting) make it to the range twice a month, though often it ends up being once a month, unfortunately. I still haven't figured out how to aim very well, and would love to meet someone else in the Houston area to go shooting with, and could see the HCA, were they to open up local chapters or something, as a group to join. But NOT instead of the Second Amendment Foundation or the Gun Owners of America, but in addition to.
That said, I am only a member of the NRA at the moment due to cost (I had to join them when I went to the Houston convention to see all the toys, what can I say? It was one COOL show. [smiles])
At least SOMEONE is intimidated by the NRA.
D
Regarding this line...
The people to whom he is catering, are the people who want to enjoy freedom without having to put forth the effort of maintaining it.
See, while I see that to an extent, what I just posted was that there is another group that I think his organization could appeal to. Those who have one, probably have it stuck in a closet, and are absolutely clueless.
Until recently I would have put myself in the absolutely clueless category, with regards to this freedom. Now I would say I am in the mostly clueless category, but it is a step up.
That said, from what I have learned, it has pushed me to realize that activism is necessary. I myself am right now working on drafting a letter that I will be sending to Texas legislators because the requirements to obtain a CHL in this state are a joke. I work within the laws, yes, and so must obey them, but I work to reduce or abolish whenever possible.
My whole point though was that this would not have started were I to not have met someone who was kindly enough to take me under their wing. And if his organization can do that, then it could be a help. That said, as I have stated before, I will still reserve my support until after I see their actions in the 2008 campaign. If they push for another liberal gun grabbing President then I will never be able to support them. But if they stay out of it and truly do focus on getting people to shoot, or if they do one step better and at the least put a fair comparison of whoever is running up and their stance on gun rights, then great. And heck, if they choose to actively support the one who is for gun rights (if there is, which, sadly enough, is not guaranteed), then all the better, though with their spoken mission I doubt that.
Anyway, if they do truly focus on getting people interested in shooting, hopefully it will lead to more people realizing the importance of activism as well.
Ok, let's say I will take your word for it that you two are honorable men with a genuine desire to supply information and emotional comfort to new or unschooled gunowners. Now, having done that, please explain to me how this is not a step backward.
We have an entire federal agency dedicated to infringing the right to keep and bear arms. This is in contravention of law and the constitution. How did this come about. Do the words hunting or sporting purposes strike any familiar chords?
They should! Clubs such as yours, that just wanted members, without engaging in the concomitant duty of commitment to the constitution and fealty to the principles of liberty tried to allay fears of the ignorant and timid populace and assure the would-be despots among us of their non-threatening nature simultaneously, by diluting a right to a privelege and/or a hobby.
Thus, the BATFE now violates the citizens' rights daily, and the clubs that didn't want to be political handed them the club with which they are battering our rights to junk. Sporting purposes, hunting, target shooting, collecting are all nice pasttimes, they however do not justify our right to keep and bear arms. Though they have become the measure of when we shall be "allowed" to exercise our rights? Gimme a break.
I am allowed to keep and bear arms because I am an American, I have been granted the right by God or nature (for you atheists), my constitution guarantees me that government shall not infringe that grant which is and always has been my possession, and because it will ruin your whole damn day if you try to take them. If you succeed today, you must kill me, because I will come back to get you, to regain my manhood, my autonomy, and my citizenship if you are stupid enough to violate me that way and leave me alive.
Anybody that doesn't feel the same way cannot have my support. I may like them and I probably wouldn't resent their activity. I would, undoubtedly, relegate them to the status irrelevancy. Why would I want to join that?
I subscribe to the NATO Doctrine of activism first adopted at the 2nd annual Gun Rights Policy Conference (GRPC) in Buffalo, NY, in 1987.
On a motion by Linda Farmer, then an officer in the National Firearms Association. The NATO Doctrine has been repeatedly reaffirmed by the activists attending the GRPCs which have followed, including the vote taken this day for 2005.
The NATO doctrine resolution is simple: An attack on one class of firearms ownership is an attack on all firearms ownership and should be resisted by all gunowners.
This "club" of yours runs counter to that statement.
It seems that your calling me irrational and any thing but calm I am a NRA member..and belong to many more Pro 2 A groups . Your group wants to compromise the "shall not be infringed "part by telling me were and how to store my weapons ,a handgun with out a round in the chamber is USELESS as a tool to keep my family and me safe. So store yours as you will and count me out !
I remember a conversation that I had one day with several acquaintances, after one of the many Second Amendment "losses" that gun owners had suffered.
One of these guys exclaimed "the NRA had lost another one" while the other guy complained about Second Amendment organizations asking him to get off his ass and send letter and attend meetings.
To the first, I explained that no – the NRA didn’t lose another one – HE and all gun owners has lost another one.
To the second, I explained that liberty requires eternal vigilance.
Looks to me that most gun owners would LOVE to become members of HCA. Just take a look at how many gun owners there are in the U.S.A., vs. the small amount willing to dedicate their time, energy and money to keeping the 2nd Amendment alive.
If I want to learn about what holster to buy or whether or not to carry a 1911 in condition 1, I’ll buy a gun magazine. Oh yeah – most gun magazines dedicate a portion of their publication to political and Second Amendment issues. It would seem that they understand that if gun owners don’t mobilize to support their hobby, no one will buy their magazines after the Second Amendment is COMPLETELY destroyed.
I just don’t need to know how to carry a Kahr, or which fodder to feed it. I need to know who is trying to proscribe my right to CARRY or OWN the Kahr.
I can’t see any reason to join.
"Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" --Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
If only I could have said it better! Imagine what Patrick Henry would say about HCA standing here idle.
I just received the HCA invitation to become a member. The mailing included the usual note from the membership director, ending with "I invite you to call me personally, now or whenever you have a question about HCA " . The note did no include a phone number. Nowhere in their mailing could I find a phone number or address for this club. The only address was the mail processing center on the return envelop you send your money in. Also, they ask for your date of birth, which is one of the pieces of information used in identity theft. Why not just ask me how old I am? For now, I'll stick with the NRA. At least they let you know how and where to contact them, and they actively support our 2nd ammendment rights.
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