I always figured going to church was voluntary, and my attendance there was between me and God.Some Arkansas lawmakers are trying to change the state's gun laws to expand the places where concealed-carry permit holders can take their handguns.
One proposal, to allow concealed guns in churches and other places of worship, is headed to the House Judiciary Committee this week. [More]
Kurt talked about this in his Examiner column today.
[Via Ed M]
17 comments:
I commented about this as well and have seen several pastors and priests repeat the fallacy that Christians should just lay down and die rather than fight back.
They appear to be shepherds unwilling to protect the flock from the wolves and instead just hope the sheep can breed faster than the wolves can eat them.
Also, to keep the church separated from the state, they should be treated just like everyone else. Once you start getting special treatment ("Our buildings have different rules that everyone else's"), well, you're just inviting the state to attach conditions to those special exceptions.
Not a good idea.
I understand the concept of desiring peace from a religious background, but unfortunately peace is unsustainable unless you are willing to fight for it.
Heh. CAPTCHA word - adose as in these guys could use a dose of reality.
some feel the duty to protect that flock irrespective of its stupidity, irrespective of the shepherd's beliefs, and irrespective of the wolves' power.
government has laws about guns in places of worship? first i've heard. tough!
the gun isn't simply in a church somewhere, bouncin' around on the floors and seats. it's in my damn holster. get some common sense.
The problem is with both sides in this debate.
Neither side believes that the LORD God is able to protect His own.
It is entirely true that the state should not dictate whether members of a congregation can carry any sort of weapon (firearm or otherwise) into their particular place of worship. It is also entirely true that the LORD God does not appreciate those who say they worship Him, coming into a sanctified (set aside) place of worship (which is considered holy) carrying the instruments of war and death. What it shows is they do not trust the LORD God to provide for them.
Before you go ballistic, kindly find for me a place in the New Testament where the apostle Paul went armed?
You can also find for me what the LORD told him about his particular ministry and how he would "suffer many things" in the course of his ministry. Where did he resist those abuses with physical force — of any kind?
The point is this:
You cannot "make a rule" or use a litmus test concerning any particular individual's ministry, and whether they should or should not "resist the evil" and then condemn them when they don't follow YOUR rules instead of what the Scripture and faith show them.
As for the LORD's houses of worship, carrying arms into them is disrespectful of the LORD God. The houses of worship of men, and of the Devil can do whatever they want.
Either one is going to believe and wholly trust the LORD God, or one can suffer the consequences of not doing so.
But if there's somebody shooting up your church, what are you going to do? You're going to call the police to come with their guns. Are their guns somehow more respectful of God?
Abject pacifism is not part of Biblical Christianity, but that's a topic for another discussion.
I don't know what church tells its people to lay down and die rather than fight. Frankly, I believe the pastor should be the one calling the shots on this. Most Christian pastors that I know have no problem with sinners packing.
AvgJoe, that's just it - each church should decide on their policy. If you don't want guns, put up a sign that says so or have the pastor ask all who are armed to leave.
Making it part of the law is the problem I have.
As for the Lord providing protection, tell that to Stephanie and Rachel Works. If it wasn't for Jeanne Assam packing her 'weapons of war', those two young girls would have only been the first of many deaths that day.
Allow me to put this in some perspective and please bear with me.
There are basically two kinds of Baptists out there:
Protestant Baptists (which came out of the Reformation)
Historical Baptists (which were never under, nor associated with the Roman Catholic or Orthodox churches)
The historical Baptists are close kin to the Mennonites and Anabaptists, but differ on certain critical points of doctrine (such as Eternal Security of the Believer and Form of the Church). They are the spiritual descendants of the Donatists, Novatians, Bogomils, Waldensians, Paulicans, et al, and most directly in America, the Welsh Baptists (which can be traced back to 64 AD).
I am a historical Baptist (fundamental, unaffiliated, local, visible church only (not universal, invisible church)).
It is a matter of doctrine that the LORD God promised to watch over and superintend His churches by the Holy Ghost. Each born-again believer is bought by the blood of Christ, and thus owned by the LORD God. When formed in covenant with each other and the Lord Jesus Christ, the church is also (by necessity) purchased by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and thus also owned (Acts 20:28, KJV).
This ownership means that we are not free to do as we please, but within the confines of the covenant and the purchase, must do as we are commanded – and leave the results entirely up to the LORD.
This is not what Protestant Baptists, most Protestants and Catholics (can’t really speak for Orthodox) believe. Though they may mouth the words, their actions belie their words. They do not believe they are purchased or owned, and do not act as such.
I say all this to give perspective to the issue of arms (weapons) in churches. It depends totally on what a congregation believes as to whether arms are allowed in a house of worship.
Historical Baptists do not, as a rule, allow the open carry, or bearing of arms within the sanctuary as we generally equate it with the sanctuary of the Old Testament Tabernacle and Temple. The LORD plainly stated “My house shall be called a house of prayer.”
If someone comes to visit and carries concealed, there is nothing we can or will do about it as we do not ask. That is strictly between that person and the LORD. We do not believe the government, or any other body or authority should be telling us what we will, and what we will not allow inside the sanctuary. By the same token, if someone carries openly, we will ask that they remove the arm before entering the sanctuary – regardless of who it is. All we ask is that you respect the house of God, and trust Him for your protection while you are in His house.
Jesus said in Luke 22:36 Then he said to them, "But now whoever has a wallet must take it along, and his traveling bag, too. And the one who has no sword must sell his coat and buy one.
Jesus would rather have you poorly clothed than impotent.
Steve K.
Please be careful about taking one verse out of context and misapplying it.
Very shortly thereafter when Simon Peter used his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane, the Lord Jesus rebuked him for it.
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Matthew 26:51-52)
Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? (John 18:10-11)
The passage you cite is a passage that has specific application, and not to be used generally — as the rest of the New Testament demonstrates.
This misapplication of texts, whether the Scripture, Constitutions, or laws is why America is in the strait we find it in today.
Sorry Paul, but you are wrong on this. God has ordered us to protect his second most precious gift to us, the gift of life. Salvation being his first most precious gift.
To do otherwise is to tell God that the gift has no value. I don't think anyone wants to get in a pissing match with Him.
The original commandment said "Thou shalt not murder", not as it is so often erroneously quoted "Thou shalt not kill". The former meant just what it said that one should never "unjustifiably" kill another, that being the very definition of murder. The latter was an alteration applied by man in order to better control those they lorded over.
Not all homicides are murder, some are justified and are allowed under God's word. Not just once or twice, but throughout our instruction manual.
Paul, I respect you greatly, but I would remind you that church policy is not necessarily supported by scripture, depending of course on the policy. Churches are run by men. Men have ambitions. Some have more than others. Enhanced control enhances power. Why do you think there are so many denominations of Christian churches?
Here is a clue, it wasn't due entirely to disagreement over the meaning of the Word. In far too many cases it was simply because the top spots were taken in the existing churches and the ambitions of men within those institutions required that they start a new denomination in order that they may create new top spots and reap the power and prestige that go with them.
As I said, I do respect you, but I know on this you are wrong.
When Peter wacked off the servants ear he was trying to do what Roman fighters did and that was split the helmit cracking the skull. Peter missed and cut off the ear of the servant and Chirst doing his last public miracle put the servants ear back on. This was done so that nothing got in the way of the master plan. Christ also knew he needed his apostles to do a lot of work after he goes back to heaven. It had nothing to do with being non-violent. Christ kick butt whipping the founders of the Illuminati, the money changers at the temple.
As Arrow said, he gave us a gift and had no problem with us fighting evil so we could be a Christian nation to save souls. Washington's coat had many bullet holes in it because the Red Coats had him as a marked man. Washington was a huge man of well over six feet. He rode a white hourse and stayed in the sadle. He was blessed in battle, no question aobut it.
SA,
Good to hear from you, even if you disagree (which I figured you would). :)
What you are talking about is not even where I am coming from. Please reread what I wrote. I take the Scripture LITERALLY, not figuratively (please remember there is a real literal spiritual world just as well as this physical world).
You are looking at the church as a manmade institution — YES?
If so, that is not what the Scripture teaches about the LORD’s church (as opposed to churches run by men, or Satan)
If you want, we could continue this by e-mail (as this IS David’s blog) or on my blog (which would be more appropriate).
Good to hear from you again.
AvgJoe,
What are you talking about? What matters is what the Scripture states, which requires considerable time to investigate, and cannot be successfully done without faith, which is the instrument that allows us to properly see spiritual things.
The long and short of this whole discussion is that it is each individual congregation’s determination to make — not the government’s, nor some distant religious hierarchy, nor even an outsider who is not a covenanted member of that specific congregation.
Passing judgement upon a particular congregation for it’s policy concerning arms in the sanctuary is awful presumptuous since they are the ones that have to answer to God in the end — don’t you think?
After all, you answer for you, not for me. I answer for me, not for you. You can be just as tyrannical imposing a policy on a congregation that you think is good for them, as any of the dictators in history have been.
I've got a pastor friend who preaches every Sunday morning with a pistol in his pocket. I love rednecks in the South.
Some of you take the Bible literally? I didn't know that you read Greek that well, and even then the words spoken originally in Aramaic and Latin have been translated from those languages into Greek. Otherwise, you are reading someone's translation into English in addition to the previous translation.
Paul W. - so you guys don't lock up your church on Sunday night, huh? And you don't password protect any of your computers in the church?
I didn't find 'lock your church' or 'password protect you data' in Paul's writings either.
We either use our God-given judgment and protect the flock in ALL cases or we can just as you say "leave the results entirely up to the LORD." And does your philosophy of prevent a few soldiers in Iraq having a church service out in the field where they have to have their weapons w/them? Guns w/in churches do not automatically mean you can't do church properly.
God makes us holy not stupid.
One thing more, a church is not a building. It is anywhere two or more gather to worship. It can be in an open field, a bar, the middle of a battlefield, in a car anywhere. Just because someone erects a building in deference to their own supposed piety does not grant it special dispensation to "improve" God's own instructions.
Two things which are applicable to all times and places — and then a brief comment:
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. (Jeremiah 17:5-7)
My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved. In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.
Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity. Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them. God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God. (Psalm 62:5-11)
The problem here is two-fold:
1. No real trust in the LORD God — this does not surprise me.
2. A penchant for the easy quick answer from the Scripture — which is wrong in virtually all cases. This subject touches on a number of issues that are worthy of much more discussion than this format allows.
Some of you well know my history, and ought to consider why it is, knowing my history, that on this issue I take such a definite, hard stand. Kindly do this before going off and saying I don't know what I'm talking about.
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