NOTE: INTERVIEW CONDUCTED ON APRIL 9. THREAD NOW CLOSED FROM FURTHER QUESTIONS. YOU CAN ASK 'EM, BUT RYAN WON'T BE AROUND TO ANSWER.
WarOnGuns has been reporting on the ongoing BATFE actions against Red's Trading Post in Twin Falls, ID, since we became aware of this story. I contacted Red's Marketing Director Ryan Horsley and he agreed to answer some questions about his plight, and also provided me with this brief bio to introduce himself to us:
Ryan Horsley is the fourth generation at Red's Trading Post "Idaho's Oldest Gun Shop" which was started in 1936 by his Great Grandfather. Horsley serves as Chairman of the Twin Falls Planning and Zoning Commission, President of the Twin Falls Downtown Business District, Board of Directors for the Twin Falls Chamber of Commerce, Public Relations Chairman for Employer Support for the Guard and Reserve and was appointed to the Selective Service Board by then Idaho Governor and Current Secretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne. He has brought Red's Trading Post from a local pawn shop to a thriving online specialty firearms store that has increased nearly 600% since Horsley's arrival. Ryan and his wife Miah have 3 small children.
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DC: Tell me about Red's.
RH: Red's Trading Post was started by my Great Grandfather Lowell "Red" Kinney in 1936. We became at the time one of the biggest gun shops in Idaho for awhile. We are located in the heart of Twin Falls in a 95 year old building. In recent years the majority of our business is online. We specialize in consignments and specialty firearms.
DC: So what happened? And have you had you had these problems before?
RH: We were audited in 2000 and there were some minor errors found, that was when I just took over the role of manager. We were then audited again in 2001 and found in full compliance. In 2005 we were audited again and the agent found minor paperwork errors and other minor items. Yet we were told by the ATF Agent conducting the investigation that we were one of the "best small gun shops he had inspected". I was not worried because these were small items that could be rectified, most of the items that had been brought to our attention were items that other Agents never mentioned to us. He explained that each Agent looks for something different. The inspector went through about 10,000 forms, we have a success rate of 99.6%. Yet the ATF has to prove that these violations are WILLFUL, willful is a word that Reagan and Congress put in the wording to protect dealers but the ATF is now saying that if you were written up on violations in the past and then again...it is willful. I was stunned to say the least when we found that they were going to revoke our license.
DC: Aside from some paperwork glitches, what damage has been done?
RH: There were no missing guns, all of our sales were to legal buyers, there was nothing shady. The most severe violation that the ATF is touting is one in which a local retired Doctor came in to pick up a special order shotgun. My clerk called him in and had him fill out the paperwork. When my clerk turned around he grabbed the paperwork probably assuming that it was his. When it was discovered the ATF agent contacted his widow and verified that it was completed and that it was called in. Yet they have labeled this WILLFUL as well.
DC: What's the current status of your case? Does your lawyer think talking publicly about it could be used against you?
RH: We are currently in the process of seeking and injunction to allow us to acquire firearms. The ATF pulled a different tactic on us and said that through the Federal Court process we could no longer acquire any new firearms, we could only sell off our remaining inventory. I have kept quiet on several things which drives me nuts because I have always been open and upfront on everything. So that is why I try and focus on what is happening to our industry as a whole rather than our own personal case but that tends to turn into the focus sometime. People wonder who this can happen to an honest established dealer located in Idaho which is the most Republican state in the Union where our Senior Senator also sits on the Board of Directors for the NRA. Yet it proves if it can happen to us then it could happen to anyone.
DC: There are those in the gun community commenting on forums who aren't all that sympathetic to your plight-they basically say you had a job to do keeping complete records and your failure to do that brought your troubles on yourself. How do you respond to that?
RH: It is really easy to cast stones, I used to do it. I would hear of some dealer who had their license revoked and would assume that it was something really bad. I saw this happening to the individuals who had FFL's but really did not feel compelled to speak up. Just like the poem:
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. Pastor Martin Niemöller.We need to stand up for each other, we cannot allow them to tear us apart. There are so many other dealers who are hiding their head because most times in the court of Public Opinion we are found guilty. We need to stand up for one another and come to each others aid and not just throw our fellow dealers to the wolves.
DC: You say the BATFE is shutting down gun dealers, and imply that is part of an agenda. What makes you think that?
RH: Shooting Sports Retailer Magazine just reported that from 2001 to 2006, revocations have gone up nearly 6 times. The VPC reported that "the Number of Gun Dealers in U.S. Drops Almost 80 Percent—From 245,628 to 54,902—Since 1994 till 2005". That is why Congress put together the ATF Reform Act of 2006 which received bipartisan support in the House, but was ultimately held up in the Senate by Dianne Feinstein. Gun Manufacturers, Distributors, the NRA and other organizations are aware of this. Dealers are either having to fight this in Federal Court or if they cannot afford it they just close shop. We are easy targets. The startling fact is that the ATF's funding is increasing, yet FFL dealers are rapidly declining.
DC: Tell us about your petition, and what you hope to accomplish with it. Are you satisfied with the response?
RH: The petition is twofold, it is to educate gun owners to what is happening and it is also to be sent out to Congress. I have had some organizations ask if they can use it as well. I feel the response is OK but could be much better, there are some excellent comments on it.
DC: We reported on the commercials you produced. Are they being shown anywhere besides the Internet? What difference do you expect them to make?RH: They are on our web site www.redstradingpost.com and are available to anyone to download as well. Some supporters have posted them on YouTube. I think they are a great tool to get Gun Owners attention, I am hoping people will contact their Congressional Delegates and show support to reform the ATF. Gun Dealers are becoming an endangered species.
DC: Does anyone from BATFE seem inclined to give you a break, or does it look like they're intent on destroying Red's? And do you think going public like this will make them more or less inclined to show lenience?RH: It is all coming from the top, they cannot let you win, they have an unlimited amount of resources and it is a costly fight. When it became clear that they were not going to let up that is when I had to make a decision to go public about this. Honestly what is the worst thing that they can do to me...revoke my license? I have been told by others who have won in court that to expect more attacks. So I have to press on because the only true victory is to reform the ATF or severely cut their budget.
DC: Who in the pro-gun community has stepped forward to help you, either through publicity, with legal aid, etc.?
RH: ATFABUSE.com has been great with being very vocal, hitting the gun forums. JPFO has been wonderful as well and has requested pictures of our store for their upcoming video "The Gang", the NRA posted an ILA report on their website. Several small grass roots organizations have been great but the larger organizations are silent. One which we are a member of has ignored us and will not answer our e-mails. I have had individuals and other dealers step forward to offer funds for our legal defense but I have declined. This issue is not about Red's Trading Post and I do not want people to think that I am doing this for my own personal gain or to receive money, sympathy or empathy. This campaign is for all dealers and for gun owners, to protect our industry.
DC: Have customers, suppliers, and those who know you in the business community come forth with testimonials? Would they be helpful? Are you soliciting them, or do you have plans to?
RH: I have not sought any testimonials but I have asked them to speak out. Where we are in Federal Court, our case is up to the Judge. So it would not do much good at this point. Speaking out for us is a moot point but you can speak out for other dealers and against these attacks.
DC: What is the best outcome you can hope for, and what do you think your chances are of achieving it?
RH: We are confident that we will win this case and recoup attorney fees. But the best outcome is for reform because they will be back if we win or will just set their sights on another dealer. Reform, Cutting their budget or join JPFO's campaign to "Boot the BATFE". We have to be responsible taxpayers as well. If we saw our local Police department spending the majority of their time issuing tickets for littering and jaywalking when there is real crime being committed then we would be outraged. Why are we not outraged when we see the ATF spending the majority of their time going after honest gun dealers for petty violations when there are real criminals out there?
DC: What would you ask of people reading this interview? What do you want them to do?
RH: Stand behind your dealers, Contact your Senators and Congressman, do not let this continue to happen. This is your chance to fight back. Politically we are moving in an uncertain future, we have the ability to turn the tide against what seems to be a barrage of attacks from the new assault weapons ban, Bloomberg straw purchase entrapments, ATF shutting down dealers and so many that are happening at statewide levels. Our guard is down right now and this industry is taking shots left and right. This takes individuals, this takes men and women we have reached a point where we cannot compromise. Get involved and stand up!
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Now it's time for you to ask questions. Ryan has agreed to check in from time to time today and see what you have posted for him to answer in the "Comments" section, below.
Please follow these very simple ground rules:
Stay on topic.
Keep questions brief and to the point.
Ask a question, don't write an essay.
Politeness, please.
Your willing cooperation with these expectations of conduct will help provide an enjoyable and informative experience for all, and will be appreciated.
UPDATE: Ryan tells me he's been asked to appear on Cam Edwards' program some time today. Hopefully he can give us the details so we can all listen in.
INTERVIEW CONDUCTED ON APRIL 9. THREAD NOW CLOSED FROM FURTHER QUESTIONS. YOU CAN ASK 'EM, BUT RYAN WON'T BE AROUND TO ANSWER.
19 comments:
So are you completely shut down now? Can you sell anything? What is Red's doing to keep the lights on?
Do you believe there is any legitimate "job" for the BATFE? Who are "the real criminals" you were speaking of sending the BATFE after?
Since the BATFE is the only federal agency specifically charged with violation of the constitutional rights of every citizen of the United States, would it not be better to disband it?
Perhaps seizing all the property of all its employees under the RICO statutes?
In other words if we are to take the offense, why not go all the way?
What is needed is not a petition or a singular court victory for Ryan alone. Sure Ryan may win this particular case, but they'll be back and next time they'll dot their i's and cross their t's.
Somehow we need to motivate the gun owners of America to care enough that their rights are being eroded. I don't mean passively care, I mean actively care... enough to actualy do something.
Calling or writing your congressmen just isn't enough (hell we can't even get most to do that either!). Too many of us gun owners are plagued by the same laziness and apathy that marks our society as well.
The answer to all of this gun banning, license revoking craziness is simple and all it takes is balls, a little organization and some time.
Imagine if you will a million man march on Washington DC of gun owners... all openly bearing arms in abbeyance of the illegal laws against it. A muster of the militia if you will...
The march should be entirely peaceful but armed. That is how civil disobedience should be done... "we have the ability to seriously cause some trouble, but we choose not to!".
The folks in attendance should simply camp out on the mall until all of the illegal gun laws are repealed (all the way back to the 1934 law regarding machineguns) and congress enacts a resolution affirming our individual right to bear arms.
We wouldn't need any flowery speaches from folks like Charleton Heston or Ted Nugent (not that we'd mind if they did speak)... It could be like one big swap meet surrounded by a bunch of very nervous out-numbered cops.
The United States can't muster an army of 1 million these days... So the police and National Guard would be powerless to stop it. Think about it. The current population of the US is estimated to be 301,570,115 by the Census Bureau. If only 25% of those persons own guns, that is a potential army of well over 75 million. We'd need a turn out of less than 2% of all gun owners to make a true million man (ok let's not be sexist gals can attend too ;-) ) march. The scariest thing of all for those in congress would be the fact that this militia represents such a small percentage of the total possible number.
Unfortunately, I'm a little skeptical that you could get 2% of gun owners to truly care enough to risk showing up. Liberal groups do this sort of thing all the time. Perhaps they have more courage than we do... (I sure hope that thought pisses some people off enough to act).
Ask a question, don't write an essay.
Oops sorry, just now read that part...
99.6% in the x ring and no shots completely off target. I should shoot that good.
Straight Arrow,
I am beginning to agree with that statement. I have been encouraging others to join the JPFO and their "Boot the BATFE Campaign".
Ryan
Ryan,
We are selling out the remainder of our inventory while we wait for an injunction. Our attorney has said that the decision that the ATF made in our case is uncommon. That they generally allow you to continue your full operations. This Director has stated that it is for Public Safety that he has made this decision.
Have you pointed out to ATF that felons like Rapper/Actor Marky Mark are allowed to unlawfully handle guns, and they all seem to get a pass?
What about equal protection? Isn't a felon in possession of a firearm a more serious crime than some minor paperwork errors?
Ned
I'm of the opinion, and can prove it to be correct. That ALL 'gun control' laws, (including the 'felon in possession'), are Unconstitutional. The ATF was set up under the false premise that our God-given, inherent and inalienable Right. Fell in under the regulation of Congress due to the (supposed) corelation to the 'militia'. I can show were the error was made on the Congressional record.
The Second Amendment was specifically designed to prevent the disarming of the people that may have run afoul of the law. (Shay's rebellion).
The only truly legal, and acknowledged, Constitionally delegated authority Congress has. Is over the importation and exportation of firearms PERIOD - On American soil they have NO authority to hinder the exercise of that Right. Conversely, they are clearly charged "TO SECURE the Blessings of Liberty". The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is the "Palladium of Liberty". The Fed. is supposed to ensure that it is NOT encroached upon by the local, state OR federal governments.
And I'm not just making idle assertions. David can back me up, that I do have the documented Constitutionally correct evidence to back it.
The point I'm attempting to make. IS that you need to fight these usurping tyrants with every ounce of energy that you possess. If I was able to help monetarily, I most certainly would.
We The People need to resume exercising our Rightful authority over our servants.
What they are doing to Red's is plainly unconstitutional, and needs to be fought against.
How can We The People help?
We have to let other gun owners know, Gun Dealers need to get Manufacturers and Distributors to speak up. Our Senators and Congressman WILL listen if they begin getting enough phone calls and letters.
Ryan, my senators are Boxer and Feinstein, my rep Jane Harman. They laugh at pro-gunner letters because they know they possess such an overwhelming brainwashed majority.
What do those of us in solid blue states who can't make a political difference against the urban voter mass do?
David,
I would suggest to contact groups such as the NRA, NSSF and other groups and have them make this issue a priority. NSSF has been silent on this issue which concerns me, They have several cooperative programs with the ATF but they have to realize who they are representing. The NSSF also included the National Association of Firearms Retailers.
Ryan
Ryan: I would suggest to contact groups such as the NRA, NSSF and other groups and have them make this issue a priority. NSSF has been silent on this issue which concerns me, They have several cooperative programs with the ATF but they have to realize who they are representing. The NSSF also included the National Association of Firearms Retailers.
Are you sure this is wise?
IIRC, NSSF had wanted to "work with ATF"...as if ATF was an organization that could be reasoned with. And it has been pointed out to me that NRA has backed, and sometimes bragged about supporting, most of the gun-control that we have on a federal level (helping it get passed via the "compromise" tactic...remember Animal Farm).
We may want to consider the idea that MSGM groups like NRA and the NSSF may not be entirely on our side. I fear if they get involved, they will hijack the issue and take it on a course we don't want it to go. And given their size and influence, getting them involved could bury grassroots efforts at achieving true success.
Sincerely, C.H.
C.H.,
I do agree with you, we have to get the message that there is no compromise. There have been too many compromises over the years and that is why we are sitting where we are. There is going to have to be a point where the larger organizations get on board though or they will be losing members. You would think that with the rapid decline in Dealers the NSSF would be on board with a campaign that would stop the bleeding.
Ryan
G-Man, tell me when and where. I'll be there. But bear in mind that if you only have the two of us, we will die, because I will not surrender. They will kill you too, for being with me.
Say when, where, I'm there.
There is strength in numbers. What will provide the proper motivation to muster?
How many have to be imprisoned, ruined or murdered before We The People respond?
The longer we delay action. The more difficult it will be to turn this perversion around.....
Straightarrow, G-man, Quammen, you guys are great. But once uncle Sam realized such a march was underway, do you think even .5% of gun owners could just up and drive to the location without getting stopped?
Call me crazy, but I doubt it.
This thread is now closed for further questions. Thank you Ryan, and thanks to all of you who participated with relevant questions.
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