Wednesday, August 27, 2008

Sebastian Knows Best

About Appleseed.

Just ask him.
Posted by David Codrea at 8/27/2008 08:32:00 AM

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

OK, I'll take the bait. I'm really missing something here.

8/27/2008 9:14 AM
Kurt '45superman' Hofmann said...

I think he's under a mistaken impression about what Appleseed is trying to do--he seems to think it bills itself as a kind of introduction to rifle shooting, for brand new shooters. That's not, I think, what Appleseed is about.

8/27/2008 9:17 AM
GunRights4US said...

My first thought is to ignore the criticisms of one who hasn't been there or done that.

8/27/2008 9:32 AM
Anonymous said...

I'm a former Marine working as a contractor in Iraq, and I'm considering going to an appleseed on one of my R&Rs.

It doesn't sound like a good introduction to shooting, but it does sound like a great way to get a rifle owner up to speed on basic known disance riflery. (if that is even a word)

8/27/2008 10:18 AM
David Codrea said...

They're pretty clear on what they're about and open on what to expect--right down to the "boot camp" terminology and advocacy of founding history--after all, they call themselves the Revolutionary War Veterans Association, for crying out loud--I'd expect anyone making the commitment required to attend one would have done some checking first to make sure it was something they were prepared to try.

8/27/2008 10:35 AM
Kurt '45superman' Hofmann said...

Exactly--anyone who goes there expecting to be coddled deserves to be disappointed.

I'm not arguing that there isn't a place for "kinder, gentler" rifle instruction, but Appleseed isn't trying to be that place.

8/27/2008 10:42 AM
Anonymous said...

At my last Appleseed we had a Boy Scout who was soon to be enlisting shoot marksman with a lever action .22!

This includes transitioning from standing to prone and rapid firing as well as standing to sitting/kneeling. This is impressive with a lever action since operating the lever breaks position.

I like Appleseed instruction and as much or more the history. It is not for everyone.

8/27/2008 10:55 AM
Concerned American said...

I've put up a "attend one and if you think it's not worth the money, I'll comp you" challenge to Sebastian and Egregious Charles.

Let's see if they man up.

My issues with the Jack Dailey/"Fred" crowd have always stemmed from the deliberate disconnection between the shooting activities and the current political scene.

As an "Intro to Basic Rifle Marksmanship", the program is very useful.

8/27/2008 12:27 PM
Anonymous said...

Having not attended, my issue with Appleseed centers primarily around the use of the sling a shooting platform, which is completely absent from modern military riflecraft. I question teaching a technique that has been all but discarded for use actually using your rifle as a fighting tool.

If you're teaching people to win competitions, I'm fine with sling use, but since Appleseed purports to be equipping citizens to be riflemen (which I take to mean people capable of using the rifle as a fighting platform) then using a sling seems, well, silly.

8/27/2008 1:39 PM
Anonymous said...

Hey, my wife went from non-shooter to almost Expert in one week at an Appleseed event, and now loves my favorite sport. Sebastian and PDB's backbench quibbling and innuendos make them look small-minded and jealous. "Fred" has introduced thousands of newbies to shooting -- who cares if they tell some war stories (very entertaining and inspiring, by the way) and make some money? Sheesh...we're our own worst enemy!

8/27/2008 1:46 PM
Anonymous said...

Appleseed was ok. Then I just attended a couple of 'minis' that are done monthly. Reminded me of boy Scout and ROTC training back when that meant good basic training

For more training, try Gunsite, Pat Rogers, Louis Auerbeck FR&I among others. JMHO

8/27/2008 3:02 PM
Sean said...

Yes, Ahab, it sounds silly. But having actually killed a man using a sling on my M16A2, it didn't seem that silly. Did it with a gussied-up M14 as well. I have a theory about all this wonderful high-tech crap that has come along in the last 30 yrs. or so. It's all bullshit. I'd rather fight like an Apache, than die loaded down with batteries and crap.You know what's really silly? With our dependency on tech and armour, and regulations and by the numbers, we have become the British against the Mohawks and Iriqois. Tech is fine, we just can't ignore the basics. A sling is basic.

8/27/2008 4:00 PM
Anonymous said...

Teaching the sling is not a bad thing. A properly adjusted 2 or 3 point sling can be utilised in a similiar manner. Yes, you might have to take a second to do something akin to a 'hasty' sling to adjust the tension. However, the basics are learned best in the old fashioned way.

8/27/2008 4:17 PM
Anonymous said...

"I'd rather fight like an Apache, than die loaded down with batteries and crap."

Yeah, that worked out real well for the Apaches. They even got their own rez and free gummint cheese now !

8/27/2008 6:33 PM
Anonymous said...

Appleseed isn't a perfect program.
But, it is really, really, good and still the best bargin in basic rifle instruction in the nation.
This is due to a dedicated group who works for free to get people to the range and up to speed on their rilfe skills.
The fact that the program has doubled attendence every year should tell you some thing.
I don't believe that there is anything to compare it to for getting folks off the sofa and out to the range.

8/27/2008 8:04 PM
Fits said...

Dropped many a target using a good loop sling when one was necessary. Don't like 'em, then don't use 'em, simple as that. But for those who have and with much success, they remain a viable adjunct to both target and real world combat shooting.

8/27/2008 9:24 PM
Fletch said...

All I can do is shake my head.

I stopped reading Sebastian when he did something similar recently. Now were we are again...

8/28/2008 1:10 AM
Fletch said...

er-- now HERE we are again.

8/28/2008 1:11 AM
Anonymous said...

Yep Sean. It's been noted that guns with all the fancy stuff fail often.

8/28/2008 2:03 AM
Sean said...

Notice, affe, I said, fight, like an Apache, not, wind up like, an Apache. When they were up against the U.S. Army, back in the 1860s thru the 1890s, they were never able to muster more than 1,000 effectives at any one time, and never that many in any one fight. At most, 250 at once. This, against a total of 65,000 blue coats, over 2,000 were other Native American tribes, some of them Apaches. To subdue them, the Army destroyed everything they found, such as crops, and villages, and non-combatants, and introduced the survivors to the pleasures of fire-water, something the Apache, like other Native American tribes, were especially vulnerable to become addicted. Why the were left with their "rez" and "free gummint cheeze",is beyond me, all they really wanted was their land and to be left alone. Most of them died, and the ones left are scattered, dissapated, and many are alcoholics, and chronically ill. I think it's a great illustration as to what happens to people who are unable to resist the wonderful govt' we have. Such as the Branch Davidians, or Randy Weaver and his family. Or Wanye Fincher and David Olafson. I used to think of the Apaches and others as losers. Now, I just know my turn hasn't come yet. If you believe they wound up badly, just wait till you walk a mile in their moccasins. I hope I have half their guts. I already have most of their hate.

8/28/2008 3:31 AM
Anonymous said...

Explain to me exactly how a forward pistol grip, which is what I advocated instead of a sling is "loaded with batteries" and or more failure prone than a sling.

8/28/2008 11:41 AM
Anonymous said...

"I'd rather fight like an Apache, than die loaded down with batteries and crap."

Yeah, that worked out real well for the Apaches. They even got their own rez and free gummint cheese now !


Actually, I have been persuaqded that the Apaches lost because they didn't understand the character of their enemies and what they valued. An interesting novel called Apacheria makes this case in an fascinating way. More suggested reading from me.

Vanderboegh III

8/28/2008 1:33 PM
David Codrea said...

Ahab, not everyone owns a rifle with a pistol grip, or one might not be available if an emergency situation happens and you're not near your personal weapons.

It is a time-tested fundamental. They taught it when I got my Garand through the then-CMP, and no one there thought it was "silly." It does not hurt people to learn basic skills, just as it does not hurt people to learn newer ones. To disdain people learning a fundamental skill set smacks of a "one size fits all" approach that only gives validity to your preference and training.

It served many members of our armed forces well--people back in the days when Americans won wars resulting in enemy surrenders. And we have heard from veterans who have put slings to good purpose.

The bottom line is there's plenty of information out there on Appleseed and plenty of representatives willing to talk--and they have done so cordially and with class on the comment threads I've seen--despite some very unkind, disdainful, and most troubling--inaccurate comments from people forming a knee-jerk judgment.

I'd say the proof that it works well for many--not all, no one can make that claim--is in the growing numbers of enthusiastic attendees who have learned new skills they otherwise would not have.

8/28/2008 2:51 PM

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