Hi David,
I'm here to ask advice on guns and ammo. I read a handful of gun blogs, and I think most of their authors read your blog, so if you publish this, I can ask them all at once, along with others.
Next spring I'll be moving to the east coast and I'd like to make a habit of open carrying, both for personal protection and as a public statement. If I end up working in a potentially dangerous place, I will apply for a concealed carry permit, but that is farther down the road. (I don't currently carry because I'm well known in my town as the Bookmobile Driver, and I'm pretty sure "certain parties" would disapprove. That's a battle I'd rather not fight for the next few months.)
I'm looking for expertise on the pros and cons of what gun to carry. My husband and I are willing to buy a new gun eventually, but if it's manageable, I'd as soon carry one that I already have. We own two revolvers and one pistol. The pistol is a S&W .22; I enjoy shooting it and I'm fairly accurate with it. On the plus side, it's light and has a slim profile. My concerns are: I prefer revolvers for their simplicity, but more importantly, it doesn't have much oomph. If I need to shoot in self- defense, I can't afford to bet my life on the accuracy of my aim. If I shoot a thug, but miss the head or heart, he may have time to wreak plenty of havoc before he collapses. I don't even keep it readily accessible in the house. I've pretty much ruled out that gun, but I'm open to broader insights.
One revolver is a S&W .38 police service revolver, probably as old as I am. I love that gun. I like the weight, the balance, the mild kick, everything about it. My aim is extremely accurate with it. Shooting it is just plain fun. But...The other is a Ruger .357 Magnum, and it Makes. A. Statement. (which is part of my reason for carrying in the first place.) Because it's heavier and has more kick, my aim is slightly off, but only by a few inches. With a stationary target.
My husband is ex-army and my son is a small arms tech in the USMC. They both agree that the .22 is not the right gun for me. Between the revolvers, my son recommends the Ruger. Of course he's a young Marine, and rather fond of firepower. My husband (who's about the most sensible person I know) isn't exactly pleased about the open carry idea at all. He thinks it might be "asking for trouble." 10 years ago I would have agreed with him, but now I find myself appalled by the alarmed response of so many ordinary people, when they see a gun. Then again, I do spend more time around women than he does. My perception is that far too many people now associate guns only with cops, criminals and hunters. I don't like it.
So. Should I get the chip off my shoulder and only carry concealed? Concealed or open, which gun should I carry? What other (reasonably priced) guns should I consider? New or used? What kind of ammo is best for self defense? I'm looking for some wisdom born of experience.
As for my shooting habits, I will take an approved class to qualify for a permit, but my only real training is in safe handling. I'm essentially a plinker (except with the Magnum because it doesn't "plink" at all) - I occasionally blast a few twigs and paper targets in a ravine on my property. I haven't been to a range in over two decades.
With gratitude,
Suz
I don't do a lot of gun and self defense stuff on this blog because I'm in this for the ideological fight. Besides, plenty of you know a lot more than I do, so I don't pretend to be an authority on best guns, carry techniques, etc.
I support open carry on principle if that's what you want to do, but am not comfortable doing it myself. In terms of the best gun, caliber, etc., that's the stuff debates are made of. I never have been a "one size fits all for all situations" kind of person anyway, and always figured the best weapon was the one at hand, and that the most important factors in an insane situation are presence of mind and will, not meaning to minimize skill and trained reflexes.
Please feel free to weigh in and share your insights and advice by posting a comment.
20 comments:
Suz, great post!
Get a 1911, carry it cross draw. It's easier to control it that way. It's the perfect weapon for small hands.
Your Marine son will envy you.
Mountain Rifleman
The best gun? It's the one she likes to shoot. If she likes .38, then there are many excellent .38 defensive rounds out there (Hornady Critical Defense, Gold Dot, Hydra-Shok etc.) that would make a .38 revolver a fine defensive arm.
Hell, take the Ruger (presumably a speed/security/service 6 or GP100) and load it with .38. That heavy pistol loaded with the tamer .38 loads is very easy for recoil averse shooters.
Bottom line, though, is pick a gun you enjoy shooting and can feasibly carry in the manner you want. If you enjoy shooting it, you'll shoot it, if you don't, you won't.
Suz,
The first thing you need to do is take a good training course. If you can work a .38 or a .357 revolver well enough to hit a target double action, you can get really good with a semi-auto pistol.
I am going to coordinate another TigerSwan training class in the spring of next year. They will loan you a Glock to shoot in their class. You should come. I know you read my blog, so just watch for the announcement. There are other places to go as well, but it would be nice to finally meet you.
I don't think that it makes any sense for us to discuss "which gun" until you have satisfied yourself that you are competent with a pistol. In the end, it's you who has to be satisfied, not us. Competence breeds confidence, and if you are going to carry, you need to be confident.
After you get good (and you will) you can have lots of fun picking out which gun to carry.
I am an instructor, and get these questions on a regular basis. Without knowing anything about your body type, and more importantly, your hand size, it would be challenging to speak to what gun. Ususally I would recommend the Glock 19. The Glock is caveman simple (like the revolver), and has the advantage of more ammo in the gun. They are also lighter than the revolver.
Conceal carry has advantages, as well as disadvantages. I do prefer it though.
Get training. Suarez Internationl is the best. Suarez has a class that was designed for the CCW permit holder. If you have an instructor in your area, they will even help with weapon selection.
You can gain a lot of real, tested, information at www.WarriorTalk.com
There is a ladies section, but newbie questions will be answered, respectfully, anywhere they are posted.
I hope this helps. Oh, I don't profit regardless of your choice. Having the best tool, and training may prepare you to save your life.
Mindset is more important than any tool. Training will enable the mindset to engage properly.
Suz,
You should carry something you're both comfortable and confident in. If that's the .38 you mentioned, so be it. Burning, deafening, and/or blinding the Bad Guy (from the muzzle flash) is all well and good, but ultimately, all that counts is hits.
As for Open Carry, there are just too many variables to give you any decent advice. Local PD, the local population, the DA, the local political climate and the applicable law will make the decision to either OC or CCW for you. And I cannot know how far you might be willing to 'push' things: open carry is for the most part prohibited here in Florida. One of the (dreaded!) loopholes is going/coming from an outdoor activity, so if I were willing to haul around a fishing rod, I could OC whenever I wanted. Or maybe one of those vests with all the fishing lures....
I d suggest a reliable automatic. Myself, i like glocks but ymmv. Then get some good professional instruction. Ive taken a few Classes from Tactical Response and liked em enough that im going back for more, Frontsite is another one. Then the most important part is to practice. You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.
I would recommend against open carry. It's great for making a statement where legal, but in a tactical situation all it does is make you a target. If some goblin comes into the local stop and rob, I don't want to die because I'm "making a statement". Concealed is always the better of the two options.
For a lady to carry, I would probably recommend one of the smaller 9's. The Ruger LC9 or the LadySmith would be good choices. The have a lot less muzzle flip than a 38 or 357 and make a second shot more accurate.
Whatever gun is chosen, a good holster is a must. Whether it's a pocket or belt holster or even a shoulder holster, it needs to securely hold the gun and be reasonably secure from being snatched away from the user. Personally, I use a standard FBI tilt pancake on a good heavy belt. There are a lot of independent holster makes that can fill the need. My own belt and holster came from a local guy here in Des Moines. Excellent quality and a decent price. If the gun is to be carried in a purse, you will still need a holster. Goodies floating around in there can foul a trigger and cause a discharge. There are even purses on the market with a separate compartment just for the gun.
If you can find a indoor range that rents guns, by all means go. Try out several different models and calibers. You want something that fits your hand and is comfortable to fire. People will not practice with a firearm that hurts their hand when they fire it.
I hope this helps.
Carry the biggest weapon you can accurately shoot and comfortably carry, concealed.
When necessary, draw the weapon and use it effectively.
Encourage others to do the same.
Be intolerant of those who deny your right to do so.
Ma'am: If I may, you seem to like Revolvers, and can hit with the .38. The .357 can hold both .357 magnum and .38 rounds, so I would recommend A) Carry the S&W .38 for now, as you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight, B)Practice with the Ruger with .38 rounds in it and determine if it is the shooter or the gun causing the inaccuracy. Since you know you can handle the recoil of a .38, if you are still shooting "off" with .38's in a .357 then your sights are off. As for open carry or concealed, carry how you are most comfortable, and in accordance with the laws in that locality. I live in AZ, a Constitutional Carry State, but some States (or even municipalities) restrict how you can carry, and some require a permit. Do your research. I hope this helps. BTW, my carry gun is a .38 Revolver, open or concealed depending on situation, and I do own pistols including a .45 1911.
I forgot to mention http://www.corneredcat.com a great site written by a woman on firearms carry.
I carried a Rudger GP100 in 357 for most of last year. The 357 still has(to the best of my knowledge) the highest one shot stop percentage of any caliber.(around 79%) The revolver was bulky, and a general pain to carry.
For the first 6 months of this year i carried a model 37 airweight snubby. It was easy to carry, but I always had a hard time reloading it quickly with strips and a speedloader.
Last month I purchased a Smith and Wesson Sigma. The frame is polymer, the slide is stainless and it is a close to maintenance free as an auto is going to get. It is easy to carry, holds 16 rounds. Has never jammed, and the trigger is very similiar to any of the revolvers I have ever carried. It has almost no protrusions to catch on an holster or pocket. Practice ammo is dirt cheap, and the choice of modern self defense ammo in 9mm is excellent. BEST PART: Usually available new for between 250 and 300 dollars anywhere in the continental USA. Good luck. Johnny Gee.
Wow! You people are amazing! This range of opinions is exactly what I was hoping for. I read your blogs and your comments on those blogs, and to me it's like a fascinating foreign language. But this I can understand, and I feel a little less "out of my depth" now. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your generosity in coaching an uninformed novice.
And Sean, I fully intend to take one of your classes. Early May is the soonest I expect to move, but if I miss the spring class, I'll wait for the next!
Suz, to echo the advice of others, pick the largest caliber you are capable of hitting a target with. A .357, .38, or even the .22 would all kill a person if need be.
Regarding open carrying, you might want to reevaluate the tactic you are using to promote responsible firearm ownership. You will receive lots of criticism and potentially a violent "alarmed response" from a civilian, Law Enforcement, or thug. If you want to wear your political views on your sleeve (or on your belt), you ought to consider a politically charged t-shirt that says something like "I am carrying a concealed handgun, and I’m sane" in big bright letters, ymmv. To put it bluntly, expect confrontations with insane rambling people who are deeply offended by you exercising your rights.
Robert Fowler said:
"in a tactical situation all it does is make you a target. If some goblin comes into the local stop and rob, I don't want to die because I'm "making a statement". Concealed is always the better of the two options."
I challenge you sir, to show proof of your statement. (You'll have a very hard time doing so)
fidelity said:
"You will receive lots of criticism and potentially a violent "alarmed response" from a civilian, Law Enforcement, or thug"
There goes that challenge thing again...
I've found that most people are curious more than anything and tend to ask questions (most don't know that OC is legal and it gives the opportunity to enlighten) ...never had a single "violent alarmed response" although I have been "detained" on a few occasions by LE until they confirm that I am doing nothing wrong....the majority of LEO's still don't know OC is legal in most states.
opencarry.org to find out more...
Also recommend against open carry. Suggest Glock 26, 147gr Gold Dots or similar load, the 147 effectiveness is close to 40 and 45, easy to handle in a compact.
Scroll down a bit to compare;
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
My carry gun is a ParaOrdnance P-12. Compact, and in .45. My wife's is a Bersa Thunder in .380. I wish she could carry something more powerful, but it's a lot better than nothing. Whatever you carry will depend on your personal tastes, what you can handle, and the environment you'll be in. As you can see from the above, I prefer semi-autos to revolvers, but that's based primarily on my personal experience. Revolvers are fine, and many people carry them. Whatever you do, I encourage you to carry a gun you can hit the target with, and which will do the target enough damage to allow you to survive.
Good question.
First, the gun:
I personally carry a S&W Military & Police compact .40 and I love it. Glocks are a great weapon too, but they are shaped different. I can't speak to revolvers as I've never owned one. All I can really recommend to help you choose your weapon is to find a range that rents weapons and test fire every gun you're considering with enough rounds to know it's not going to hurt you and make you afraid to shoot it. I say this because of the difference between Glock and M&P's. The Glock's grip is at more of an angle than the M&P and it hurts my wrist. YMMV, but this is why I suggest you try multiple weapons before you buy. Don't worry so much about caliber, with the advancements that have been made in ammo there are very effective rounds available for just about every cartridge.
Now the method of carry:
I am an OCer in PA and I have a LTCF (license is required in order to carry concealed (which inside vehicles is considered to be) and also to OC in Philly). I can tell you from experience that there are a lot of things to consider prior to OC'ing. First, if you are carrying purely for security, I would suggest concealed (while I haven't experienced it, it *feels* like I'm more of a target to potential BG's). Second, if you are going to OC, be prepared to answer questions (I carry the handout available from www.paopencarry.org that explains the laws about carrying). I would also say the majority of people never notice it. It's really surprising to me how few people notice (a friend came to visit from out of state and when we went anywhere he kept his eyes peeled for any reaction and didn't catch so much as a double-take in the course of a week). Most cops don't even notice it unless you're doing something to attract their attention to begin with (search David's site for my name for an example or two).
You do need to be aware of the law wherever you are. I would suggest finding a Constitutional lawyer in your AO before OC'ing and getting his take. After my Philly incident, I talked to a lawyer and I now know without any doubts what I can legally do next time. Which brings me to another question- are you prepared to go to jail? In certain circumstances that is a very real possibility. If you know the law and you have evidence on your side (you do have audio/video capability, don't you?), you will win in the end (gotta use your noggin in your responses though). Speaking of evidence, I have an iPhone with qik loaded on it (www.qik.com, it allows a live stream to the internet). This is what I used in Philly.
This is getting too long. Find a weapon you are comfortable with then choose a load that packs a punch. Get a good holster, no matter what way you are carrying. If you plan to OC, think about the possible consequences of doing so and be prepared to answer questions about it. KNOW THE LAW so you can protect yourself from thugs. Finally, decide if you are mentally prepared to actually use it (otherwise you are providing another weapon to anyone determined enough to take it).
Good Luck in whatever way you choose to go.
Hi Suz,
I wish you the best on your journey. May I start off by recommending the slow and steady approach; gain experience and build from there. There is a lot more to making the decision to carry a gun than picking out a rig and strapping it on. The real weapon is what's between your ears, everything else is just a tool. You have to ask yourself some tough questions and answer them to your complete satisfaction.
First off, please don't open carry until you've gained sufficient experience to feel capable of defending yourself and your weapon. Carrying a gun, especially open carry, is not something a novice wants to advertise. Until you've studied weapon retention and hand to hand combat, and you feel that you're absolutely capable of not letting the weapon fall into the bad guys hands, please wait to start making political statements of that kind. Both you and the public will be grateful for your restraint and wisdom.
Take a couple of concealed carry courses with vetted and respected trainers. There are many schools around the country that will fill that bill and no doubt there will be one or more withing a days drive or less from where you live. I've found Sig Sauer Academy in Epping New Hampshire to be top notch; there are many others. Check around. Don't get suckered by the fan boys and the cultists.
Look into the local NRA to see who's offering Basic Pistol, Personal Protection in the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home (3 different class, to be taken in that sequential order) and make some inquiries as to the instructors qualifications. Those classes can be great or they can be duds depending on the instructor. They're usually not that expensive and may prove to be well worth your while. You can go to the NRA site, look up training, check off the courses that you'd like to take, along with your zip code and the radius that you wouldn't mind traveling to, and a list will pop up with the various classes that will be held in the next couple of months. It'll will provide contact information for the instructor so you can give the prospective instructor a call to feel them out.
As to the gun, well.... This is going to take some time for you to find out what works best for you, your body type and how you plan to carry. This is a large, multi-variable equation that will take a fair amount of trial and error to derive the best solution for you. It probably won't be inexpensive and it probably won't be quick but eventually you will find several guns that will suit you just fine.
Talk to fellow gun owners to see what you can borrow to try out. See if there are any ranges in your area that have rentals available. SHOOT A LOT OF DIFFERENT GUNS. Then start the winnowing process. The gun must fit you well and you must be able to shoot it well. Approach the problem with an open mind and no preconceptions, be objective and be honest with yourself. Your life may depend on the decision you make.
You've waited this long, take your time, be patient, be steady, be tenacious. I have no doubt that with an open mind, along with sufficient determination and dedication, that you will find an elegant solution to your problem.
Once you've solved the above problems, go shooting as much as your time and resources allow. Practice, practice, practice.
Good luck.
Hi Suz. I can see that you've already got much to cogitate on. David keeps some fine company.
My $0.02:
I fully support anyone that chooses to OC, but I do not. My choice of carrying concealed is based on tactics, not politics: in the awful event that I fail to avoid a fight that requires my pistol, I want that sucker to be a surprise.
I'm completely agreed with several others here that the first thing to do is take the course--then pick the gun. If at all possible, run one course with an auto and another one with a revolver. If you do that, you'll know which way you should go.
I'd also +1 the idea of a security holster if you're going to OC, and you may want to look into learning the Lindell method of weapon retention regardless. Now, there may be some statistic out there that says that gun snatches are not a problem for OC'd pistols, but statistics do not impress me. (Or, put another way: Q: "Jeez, you paranoid pistol carrier, how often do you think people get killed around here, anyway?" A: "Same as everywhere. Just once." :-)
Finally: I don't know your hand size, but if you have conspicuously small hands, seriously consider trigger reach and grip size. I myself have pretty large hands, but the two guns I carry most often are a "slim-lined" 1911 and a Kahr CW40. That little Kahr is amazingly flat, light, and easy to hit with, largely due to a nice low bore axis and an absolutely outstanding trigger system for daily carry.
Whichever path you choose, I wish you the best. If you're new to carrying, be prepared to learn--a lot.
And always remember the words of Jeff Cooper: "Man fights with his mind." Do not forget to train your mind, too. A garden variety "approved class" may not cover that incredibly important topic at all. Begin with Cooper's incredibly important book "Principles of Personal Defense", and pursue the topic from there. If you can find an Orange Gunsite Master Instructor, take the basic course just for the mind-set lecture.
Find a range that rent handguns, and try them in your hands. Rent and shoot the ones you like; buy the one you like most.
Practice, practice, practice.
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