David,
Please read this police report about an arrest of a person openly carrying a pistol for obstruction for refusing to identify himself and tell me what reasonable suspicion of a crime existing to detain this man and force him to identify himself.
This is not an incident I have previously reported to you, as it just happened. This is the same jurisdiction I wrote this letter and with which we have had other issues. Think they have it out for our members?
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What is in the water down there?
ED
Friday, December 19, 2008
Where's the Reasonable Suspicion of a Crime?
From Ed Stone:
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25 comments:
If the mall is posted as a no weapons facility as the guard implies and perp walks on property with an openly displayed handgun, sounds like a legitimate reason to detain to me.
no posted signs, and if there were they hold no Legal Weight in GA
As a concealed carry permit holder, I have to say this guy does nothing good for our cause. I am glad he was detained. He is simply bringing negative attention to responsible gun owners.
"As a concealed carry permit holder, I have to say this guy does nothing good for our cause. I am glad he was detained. He is simply bringing negative attention to responsible gun owners."
How so?
By demonstrating his willingness to utilize all of his god given rights?
You don't get to pick and choose how I or anyone else decide to excercise our rights.
The mall is private property. If the mall owner wishes to restrict the carrying of weapons, they should have every right. This is not an opinion of the arrest, but of the right of a property owner to control his own property.
If asked to leave private property you do not own, you leave, period. Private property is just as much of a God given right as the right to defense.
"As a concealed carry permit holder, I have to say this guy does nothing good for our cause. I am glad he was detained. He is simply bringing negative attention to responsible gun owners."
You have no problem with someone being detained for doing nothing illegal... you, sir, should move to Russia or China and stay there. You do nothing positive for responsible gun owners by concealing your gun while coming down on those excersing the same right. In fact, you damage the cause by dividing the fighters. Was this person doing anything irresponible with his gun?
So your definition of responible gun ownership is constantly concealing effectively? Grow up and fight for your rights instead of hiding behind those you won't even fight for.
HE WAS LEAVING, READ THE WHOLE STORY.
Anonymous Shut up.
Hell I'm an anarchist and I still think you have the right to detain on private property.
Some of you 2A people need a lesson in Rights Theory and political philosophy.
IF you accept private property as an idea and you admit that it is inviolable, then you MUST allow for the restriction of guns on private property. You are voluntarily on their property, they get to make the rules, that's the way it works.
Do I have to like it? No. But it is the only philosophically consistent position to hold.
Chef,
Horsepucky. Your private property "Rights" end at the soles of my shoes. By setting foot on your property I do not cede ownership of myself over to you.
In addition, as this is about a business property, are the property owners able to tell Blacks, hanicapped, or homosexuals to leave their property? If not, why not?
"If asked to leave private property you do not own, you leave, period. Private property is just as much of a God given right as the right to defense."
1. I see nothing in the documents presented that states anything even close to his being told to leave the property. He was detained before he entered. If the signs are only on the entrances to the building then the parking lot can not be considered a gun free zone in as much as you'd have to cross the parking lot to see the signs.
2. He broke no law. So the request for ID and subsequent detainment was uncalled for and probably illegal. I don't care if the Only Ones who show up aren't sure if he's a felon or not. They have to have reasonable suspicion of a crime to ask for ID and to detain a citizen.
If you're going to try and make the "private proptery trumps all else" argument, then you have to at least offer the person you are asking to leave an opportunity to do so. I see nothing in any of the documentation that suggests this option was given. His detainment began with Ofc Sal Glorioso.
Point of order: No one tells anyone else to "shut up" on my site.
I believe that Colonial Mall is what used to be called Glynn Place Mall. I can't speak for the present circumstance, but it certainly never used to have any noticeable signage either for the parking lots or the mall building restricting weapons carry.
Moreover, most of these comments slide right by the main issue. However much of a tool the guy may or may not have been, it is still unclear how this rose to the level of obstruction. The only apparent way that it would is if Georgia has a statute requiring persons under detention to identify themselves to police officers, and I am not aware that it does. At the least, this should be identified in the police complaint. Notably, mind you, the police complaint is so weak in its grammar that it is at times impossible for me to follow.
wow i like that some people have my back this is JUSTIN BELT an id like to say i would die be for i let them take my rights an also wait for many other reports i have an also videos to come
Greg,
Of course a property owner has the right to tell blacks/whites/gays/straights to take a hike.
DO I think it's morally right? No. But on the other hand, history demonstrates that people don't want to frequent businesses that treat their customers poorly. Free Markets are the greatest weapon against bias/bigotry.
And you cede your rights over de facto by being on someone's property. If you don't like that, don't go there.
You are saying that your property rights trump theirs. That is in no way a consistent position to hold. Because after all your right to your life is just a property right over YOU.
Given the "Stops at my shoes" argument you can do anything you want on anyone's property that isn't destructive and they can't stop you. That is not in keeping with libertarian or free market rights theory.
No probable cause and no reasonable suspicion. Period. This guy wasn't waving his handgun around, threatening people. He wasn't acting in any unusual manner that would cause alarm. Just going about his business at that dumpy mall.
It's not against the law to openly carry in GA with a GFL. And unless you've done something to cause suspicion (openly carrying is not one of them), then why must you show your GFL? Or your driver's license? As far as I know, the only thing you have to do is give LEOs your name.
And for the record it's NOT illegal to carry at the mall. It may be against their policy, but it's not illegal. Only if he refused to leave could they have arrested him for criminal trespass.
I'm not from Glynn County but I visit often with my family. Next time I'm down there (which actually is in 1 week), I hope I bump into Mr. Belt so I can shake his hand.
Thank you Mr. Belt for your courage. You make the rest of us GA gun owners proud.
Chef,
Really? Do you own a business? Have you told someone to leave due to their skin color? How did that work out for you?
SHOULD you be allowed to choose whom you wish to do business with? Yes, of course. Are you allowed to choose? Sadly, no, not if you own a business.
My right to life is a property right, I own myself, I own my life. I do not give that up by setting foot on anyones property.
How exactly is my ideology inconsistent with libertarian ideology?
This is a brave young man! id love to shake your hand also Mr.Belt hope everything works in your favor!!
Why is "private property" even being mentioned in anyone's arguments? This has nothing to do with private property rights. The accused was not arrested for trespassing. He was unlawfully arrested for obstruction.
The police had no reasonable articulable suspicion that the accused had committed, is committing, or will commit a crime (unless possibly being a felon is a crime these days). Therefore, they had no right to stop him and ask him for his identification or GFL.
This case won't last long in a court in Brunswick. I also hope the cops receive some sort of punishment for violating Mr. Belt's Constitutional rights.
PS: Read State vs Jones.
The problem I see, he was requested to show his permit by police officers. As I understand Georgia law, he must show his GFL when it is requested by police. He did not. He is in violation. I wish it were not so, but it is.
what if this man had a felony an he had a gun. where would his rights be at with out getting him another felony.you dont have to get yourself in trouble. with this i say you do not have to show it and they had no reason to ask him for his id he did not have a need to show it and its that simple i wish the gov would work for peoples rights instead of against them. its just the police were scared and didnt know what to do i prey he wins cause if not the law is even worse than i thought.
The only aspect in which Private Property has an hold on this matter, is that both an object and a person were seized without any reason by an Agent of the State.
Shame on those fake 2A supporters who don't have a problem with this. You're next. Don't whine when it's your turn.
this is mr belt again watch some of this video on youtube their is six parts to it please watch http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=5S1rMA-K5WU
Problem is Georgia has a Stop & identify law, so you do have to identify yourself. You are not required to show ID. The charge of Obstruction of Justice will not hold up. He should have been charged with failure to comply with Georgia State Statue 16-11-36 (b). Not that I agree with this type of law, but it is on the books in Georgia. The police often mistake it to mean that you have to show/ carry ID but you don't. Just give your name and current address.
Of course a property owner has the right to tell blacks/whites/gays/straights to take a hike.
Chef,
It is illegal to refuse anyone service based on there gender, race, or sexual orientation. If a black person went to the mall, picked out a pair of shoes, went to purchase them, and was ultimately refused to be allowed purchase them because of his skin color would be a federal crime. There is a difference between private property that is open to the public and private property that is not. Private property open to the public can ask someone to leave because of that person's behavior, dress, etc. Unless a law exists that says carrying a gun is illegal when a business posts a sign, then a sign has no legal standing. The only thing the business can do is ask the person to leave. If they refuse, then the person is guilty of trespassing.
Anon@4/15: Nobody comes back and reads old comments--I'm afraid Chef will never see this.
As point of clarification, he was arguing rights, not legalities. There are a lot of rights that are illegal.
This case was dismissed today nearly 4 years later...
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